<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"> <head> <META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> <meta name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 12 (filtered medium)">  <style>  </style>  </head> <body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple> <div class=Section1> <p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Back when I was doing outside client work I used to use what I called a Bestimate.  It was a Bid in that it was the most I would charge and it was an Estimate because it could be less.  As you, Paul, I made it a point to find any hidden problems before giving my not-any-higher-than price.<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>dave<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>David M. Porritt, RPT<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><a href="dporritt@smu.edu"><span style='color:blue'>dporritt@smu.edu</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'> <p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>paulrevenkojones@aol.com<br> <b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 19, 2008 9:47 PM<br> <b>To:</b> pianotech@ptg.org<br> <b>Subject:</b> Re: Mark-up (was Steinway parts)<o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p> <div> <p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p> </div> <p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>-----Original Message-----<br> From: William R. Monroe <pianotech@a440piano.net><br> To: Pianotech List <pianotech@ptg.org><br> Sent: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 7:46 pm<br> Subject: Re: Mark-up (was Steinway parts)<o:p></o:p></p> <div id="AOLMsgPart_2_bb5cd21a-5286-4c51-b074-a1008500f25b"> <div> <div> <p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Bookman Old Style","serif"'>SNIP<o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt; margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'> <div> <p class=MsoNormal><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> We have never, not once, raised our price on a job after the estimate is signed. And we have eaten a lot of mistakes and unseen stuff over the years. </span></tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><br> <br> <tt>Keeps us on our toes!</tt><br> <br> <br> <br> <tt>Paul</tt></span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> </blockquote> <p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Bookman Old Style","serif"'>Paul, Ed, and others,</span><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Bookman Old Style","serif"'>Note: what follows is my own personal business philosophy, and should be taken as just another perspective.  No disrespect intended.<br> <br> </span><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>None taken.</span></b><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Bookman Old Style","serif"'>I truly don't understand not being paid for work you do.<br> <br> <b>Neither do I, which is why we have gotten really good at our estimating skills.</b><br> <br>   Mistakes, mind you, are another thing, and I wouldn't think of charging clients for errors in procedure or judgment.<br> <br> <b>Which is what a bad estimate is.</b><br> <br>   However, when we discover a surprise - whether during a rebuild or a house call - fix it (with approval), and charge accordingly.<br> <br> <b>Apples and oranges, Bill. I should know what's in a piano, even a Chickering from 1910 :-), and the dangers and risks and possibilities. If I don't, my bad. If a string breaks, properly put in the passive voice, since good technicians never break strings :-), I discuss the situation with the client and charge accordingly. I'm responsible for the restoration of the piano in major work, and cost accordingly. I'm not responsible for the minor aches and pains of the household piano or piano owner. </b><br> <br>   When I am tuning and a string breaks, I charge for that.  I didn't expect a string to break, but I won't replace strings for free because I didn't anticipate it happening.  To me, it's the same in a rebuild situation.<br> <br> <b>It's not the same at all. </b></span><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <div> <p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Bookman Old Style","serif"'>I don't think it serves either my clients or me to either write an estimate to include every possibility of things that could be found, or, conversely, to eat the cost if it goes over.  Neither do I see the lesson to be learned in absorbing unexpected costs.  For my person, I think that would lead me toward creating artificially high estimates to cover the "just-in-case" scenarios.  Actually, I suppose one could do that, thereby allowing them to come in "under-budget" and end up charging the client less than the initial estimate.  I suppose that would be reasonable too.<br> <br> <b>We do neither. We give an estimate (proposal) for a rebuild and the cost stands. Over time, we may have made extra on a job (man, I wish I could remember when that was!), and we certainly have lost some money on a job. But they balance out over time. </b><o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Bookman Old Style","serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Bookman Old Style","serif"'>In my business, however, I specifically have a clause in my contract that stipulates that there are occasionally unseen issues, and if I can solve it within  [X] % of the estimate, I will proceed with the repair without any additional contact with the client.  Their signature on the contract is written approval.  If it exceeds [X] %, I will obtain additional written permission before I proceed.<br> <br> <b>That's an interesting idea. I'm glad it works for you. Personally, I've seen overage percentages on lots of different kinds of contracts, and you know what? In almost all cases, the overage was charged. Hmmm. Bad estimating? Probably not. Probably perfect estimating, including the overage. We have done what we do for over 30 years, and the losses balance the gains, but the real gains are in 1) client trust and referral, and 2) our increased savvy at estimating and costing, what we consider good business practices.</b></span><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Bookman Old Style","serif"'>Certainly, I think it behooves us all to be very thorough in assessing pianos for rebuilding, and not just writing a "form estimate" letting all the details be discovered at teardown.  But I think as long as we are conscientious and thorough during our initial assessment, the infrequent surprises that surface should be billed accordingly.<br> <br> <b>How big a surprise will you hand your client? A new keyboard because the keys turn to be too punky to rebush? A new back action because you weren't familiar (I know <u>you</u> are) with Steinway short-arm underlevers? Where do you stop? <br> <br> Simplicity says: create situations from which you will learn. Thanks for your full response, Bill. <br> <br> Paul</b></span><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Bookman Old Style","serif"'>My thoughts,</span><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Bookman Old Style","serif"'>William R. Monroe</span><o:p></o:p></p> </div> </div> <div> <div class=MsoNormal align=center style='margin-top:7.5pt;text-align:center'> <hr size=2 width="100%" align=center> </div> <p class=MsoNormal style='margin-top:7.5pt'>More new features than ever. Check out the new <a href="http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm?ncid=aolcmp00050000000003" target="_blank">AOL Mail</a>!<o:p></o:p></p> </div> </div> </body> </html>