<div> David: You, and some others, continue to overblow the loss/gain aspect of this way of doing business. My "estimates" (simply another word for a proposal) are as close to the real cost we see involved, parts and labor. Any under- or overages are miniscule in the grand scheme of things--the cost of a total restoration. If we discover a way to do something differently at the time we're doing the work, it can cut both ways for us. For example, we began to work with agraffes differently many years ago which added about 60 hours into our jobs but which did not get costed into the then current contracts. We wanted to do it, we couldn't in conscience not do it knowing the good results we were getting, so we took the hit for a while. On the other hand, we discover some "efficiencies" or "better" (faster) way to do something, and we are able to increase the profitability of the work.  But don't inflate the differences, David; we're really talking figurative nickels and dimes. But it took a long time to get to this balance point, and we have been steadfast in trying not to learn (the skill of estimates, or the skills of restoration) on the backs of our clients. You make it sound devious and a bit mean-spirited. It's neither. It is calculated! We know to a dime what our time is worth and how much time it takes today to do something; we constantly recalculate it. Since we do not buy or sell pianos, we do not have the economic impulse to speed or corner-cutting. The best among us who do buy and sell don't either--they insist on quality and the proper attention to detail.  More comments below. </div> -----Original Message----- From: David Love <davidlovepianos@comcast.net> To: 'Pianotech List' <pianotech@ptg.org> Sent: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 10:22 pm Subject: RE: Mark-up (was Steinway parts) <div id="AOLMsgPart_0_d72ebc52-db15-4e3d-85c4-f4c61f8945ff" style="margin: 0px; font-family: Tahoma,Verdana,Arial,Sans-Serif; font-size: 12px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"> <pre style="font-size: 9pt;"><tt>A set contract with a stipulated fixed price (a bid) is not, by definition, an estimate. A contract is by definition a contract. A stipulated fixed price is not a bid. A stipulated fixed price is the firm result of an estimate/assessment/proposal/bid. A bid is an offer to work at a certain price. An estimate may be a bid or a stipulated fixed price. A stipulated fixed price included (by law)in a contract may have a foundation in estimating, proposing, assessing, however you want to parse the language. The reality is that the "Estimate of Costs" form we use and call so, is referenced in the Contract under the cost and terms of payment as a binding attachment and will not (and cannot) be deviated from, contractually.  Paul states that the losses and gains balance out. So that suggests that when he ends up ahead he keeps it and when he ends up behind he eats it. Do you discount your tunings when you're done in an hour and a half instead of an hour and three quarters? Yeah, we all find something else to do if we're charging a price based on a per hour analysis. And again, I talking about chump change against a multi-tens of thousands of dollars contract. That's good for the person for whom he eats it, not so good for the person from whom he keeps it. What you're doing then is simply overestimating the job and returning it under the estimate for things you don't end up having to do. Hmmm, never done that. Maybe I should....no. I don't think so. That's pretty base behavior in my book. That's something different. That's ok if you want to do it that way and I can see the benefit of simply saying we approach the job assuming we will do everything and it costs $X. On many jobs, I now do it that way and I do everything, meaning, I don't try and get by with not doing some procedure just because I can get away with not doing it. Do the job right and be thorough. However, there are often times when someone is trying to hit a budget on a project. You end up trying to do what's necessary for their benefit but you discover in the process that you can't really get away with skipping some procedure you thought you might have a chance to. We constantly lose work to those who are willing to do what the client wants based solely on budget. We set a price, don't deviate, don't negotiate, and if the client (with whom we spend a lot of time explaining procedures--even to the point of making a "rebuiling your piano"video many years ago at our cost and never selling it for any profit) if the client can't afford it, then we don't do it. Do you eat it? Or do you go back and say, hey we did the best we could to come in on your budget but we think this procedure really needs to be done and here's why... And, btw, that possible contingency should, ideally, be outlined in the "Estimate/Proposal". Those "contingencies" are dealt with in discussion with the client, and again, we either reach agreement or not. If not, we move on. There's plenty of work. :-) Paul </tt></pre> </div>  <div class="AOLPromoFooter"> <hr style="margin-top:10px;" /> More new features than ever. Check out the new <a href="http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm?ncid=aolcmp00050000000003" target="_blank">AOL Mail</a>! </div>