<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40" xmlns:v = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:st1 = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"><HEAD> <META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1"> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.6000.16640" name=GENERATOR><o:SmartTagType name="PostalCode" namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"></o:SmartTagType><o:SmartTagType name="State" namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"></o:SmartTagType><o:SmartTagType name="City" namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"></o:SmartTagType><o:SmartTagType name="place" namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"></o:SmartTagType><o:SmartTagType name="PersonName" namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"></o:SmartTagType> <STYLE>  </STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY lang=EN-US vLink=purple link=blue bgColor=white> <DIV>Guys: I remember reading in the Piano Tone Building book that pianos of that time was scaled to run about 160 to 180 lbs.tension on the treble strings and about 200 lbs. on the bass strings. It was stated, also, that the tensile strength on those strings was about 400 lbs above which they would break. Any thoughts on this?</DIV> <DIV>Gerald McCleskey.</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black">From: <A title=deanmay@pianorebuilders.com href="mailto:deanmay@pianorebuilders.com">Dean May</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">To: <A title=pianotech@ptg.org href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">'Pianotech List'</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 2:24 AM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">Subject: RE: stretching wire</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV class=Section1> I’ve done a little more research and found some numbers. <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> From Wikipedia: <A href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tensile_strength#cite_note-0">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tensile_strength#cite_note-0</A> <o:p></o:p> For most metals yield point is not sharply defined. Below the yield strength all deformation is recoverable, and the material will return to its initial shape when the load is removed. For stresses above the yield point the deformation is not recoverable, and the material will not return to its initial shape. This unrecoverable deformation is known as plastic deformation. For many applications plastic deformation is unacceptable, and the yield strength is used as the design limitation.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> This substantially concurs with what Mike says below, permanent stretch occurs when you pull the tension above the yield point. It is, however, a little misleading when it says “all” deformation is recoverable. <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> I haven’t yet been able to substantiate Mike’s claim that with modern piano wire the yield strength is closer to the ultimate. I have found sources that place it at 43-35%. The Wiki article above is one and here is another: <A href="http://www.mech.uwa.edu.au/DANotes/springs/fatigue/fatigue.html">http://www.mech.uwa.edu.au/DANotes/springs/fatigue/fatigue.html</A><o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> This means if your design tension is above 45% of breaking strength you will exceed the Yield Strength, unless my sources are wrong. This is not really a problem as we are still a long ways from breaking strength. <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> It is important to understand though that some plastic deformation does occur before Yield Strength, though not really appreciable. If you’re really bored check out this site: <A href="http://books.google.com/books?id=dVQOAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA7-PA319#PRA7-PA335,M1">http://books.google.com/books?id=dVQOAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA7-PA319#PRA7-PA335,M1</A><o:p></o:p> Scroll down to page 336, for example. You will find a strain table for 17 gauge wire. At 100 lbs tension the wire elongated .0122 inches. When they took the 100 lbs off it had a permanent set (i.e., plastic deformation) of .0002 inches. When they got up to 300 lbs the permanent set was .0047 inches. At 422 lbs the wire sample broke (ultimate strength). <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Mike, do you have a reference we can look at that says differently? The reference above was printed in 1918 and perhaps “modern” piano wire would be different. <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> <o:p> </o:p> <DIV> Dean<o:p></o:p> <U1:PERSONNAME u2:st="on"><st1:PersonName w:st="on">Dean May</U1:PERSONNAME></st1:PersonName>             cell 812.239.3359 <o:p></o:p> PianoRebuilders.com   812.235.5272 <o:p></o:p> <U1:PLACE u2:st="on"><U1:CITY u2:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on"><U3:PLACE u4:st="on"><U3:CITY u4:st="on">Terre Haute</st1:City></U3:PLACE></U1:CITY></U3:CITY> <U1:STATE u2:st="on"><st1:State u5:st="on"><st1:State w:st="on">IN</st1:State></U1:STATE></st1:State>  <U1:POSTALCODE u2:st="on"><st1:PostalCode u6:st="on"><st1:PostalCode w:st="on">47802</st1:PostalCode></U1:POSTALCODE></st1:PostalCode></st1:place></U1:PLACE><o:p></o:p></DIV> <o:p> </o:p> <DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center> <HR tabIndex=-1 align=center width="100%" SIZE=2> </DIV> From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On Behalf Of Mike Imbler Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 7:01 PM To: pianotech@ptg.org Subject: re: stretching wire<o:p></o:p></DIV> <o:p> </o:p> <DIV> As a mechanical engineer, I concur with Ron.  John's cite of the high tension electrical wires makes it clear that they are being tensioned beyond yield strength, which is why the article suggests heat treating the wire (which increases yield strength).  Yield strength is the point where the wire would plastically deform (stretch) which is less than ultimate strength (breaking stress).  Therefore, you -could- stretch piano wire, but you would be pulling it above its yield strength.  This would be more likely with more ductile wire which has a yield strength appreciably lower than ultimate.  With a more modern piano wire, yield strength is closer to ultimate.<o:p></o:p></DIV> <DIV>               Mike <o:p></o:p></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>