Hi Ginny! When I started here after Richard West at UNL, he left behind some posters for the office.  One was put out by Baldwin in 1960 on the evolution of the piano.  It says, (to paraphrase); Square grands originated in 1742 in Germany notably by Johannes Socher to adapt Cristofori's piano-forte to a more traditional rectangular shape of clavichords.  Higher tension of shorter strings forced new developments in metal bracing of the wooden frame giving it more stability in tuning and making possible farther extensions of the keyboard.  They remained popular until around 1900...about what you figured. The upright on this same poster says something like this:  There were some upright designs way back in the 16th century, but for harpsichords.  The first "upright" piano sucessfully designed was in 1800 indepentantly by Hawkins of Philadelphia and Mueller of Vienna.  There is an illustration of an 1825 Mueller which looks very tall like what you're talking about. I hope this helps and my poster is accurate! Paul <table width=100%> <tr valign=top> <td width=40%>"Ginny Bear" <bearginny@gmail.com> Sent by: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org 04/16/2008 12:02 PM <table border> <tr valign=top> <td bgcolor=white> <div align=center>Please respond to Pianotech List <pianotech@ptg.org></div></table> <td width=59%> <table width=100%> <tr valign=top> <td> <div align=right>To</div> <td>pianotech@ptg.org <tr valign=top> <td> <div align=right>cc</div> <td> <tr valign=top> <td> <div align=right>Subject</div> <td>Dating Square Grands and 8' Old Uprights</table> <table> <tr valign=top> <td> <td></table> </table> A piano technician friend who is not on this list asked me to put his question to you all.  He is writing a newsletter.   I had suggested Google, the library, and Wikipedia, but he said the answers were not there.   Does anyone have any suggestions beyond those?   "When were square grands made? Dates I've seen have ranged from 1830 to 1900. I wanted to know about the big solid wood ones with three foot pedals, which I think was 1845 to 1890 but not sure."   "The other one was for the first upright pianos that were very tall, about 8 feet. The strings were from the keyboard height up and had wooden foot pedals. I saw the information somewhere but cannot find it now. The date that comes to mind is 1820, but again not sure."   Thanks,   Ginny Bear