<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.3354" name=GENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=507200520-09072008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Dale~</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=507200520-09072008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=507200520-09072008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>(For some reason I got this same reply from both you and Jon Page, (except Jon's was full of question marks) --not sure what's happening. So I will respond to you both. Although it really looks like you are the one who originally sent the message. (The Genuine Article.)) What do you think Jon is up to?</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=507200520-09072008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=507200520-09072008> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=009060519-09072008><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT size=2><SPAN class=507200520-09072008>Dale</SPAN>~</FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=009060519-09072008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=009060519-09072008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Thanks for the excellent info. </FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=009060519-09072008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=009060519-09072008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>One funny thing someone wrote that I read recently was: when you expect to be able to mike the pins and find different sizes for bass to treble, the Diamond pins, because of their consistency, will not provide you this variety! (ha ha!)</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=009060519-09072008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=009060519-09072008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>But honestly, who among us wants to have to mike every pin? </FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=009060519-09072008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=009060519-09072008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>On the other hand, we shouldn't always just assume that we are getting what we are told. We do need to check up on parts quality, at least from time to time. I do mike samples from the sets of pins I use. If they seem consistent, I don't mike them all. If they seem inconsistent, or if I find in the process of stringing that some seem looser than others, or feel funny, I usually find myself miking a lot more of them before I put them in. The fact that Denros seem to run .002" smaller than specified is also something I have observed. Sometimes it works out fine, other times I wish the pin were what they say it is. Time is money, and we do depend a lot on our parts suppliers to provide uniform, acceptable parts that we don't have to mess around with.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=009060519-09072008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=009060519-09072008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>When you say shop-made 1/4-sawn blocks, does that mean you make them up from scratch? Glue them up and all? That's admirable. (But a lot of work, isn't it? Wouldn't it just be easier to go with a Bolduc block? Or have you found some inconsistencies, like with tuning pins? ;-). You must have some very accurate woodworking machines: planers, table saws, and a nice clamping press. What kind of glue would you use, that wouldn't cause the oxide rings on the tuning pin threads?</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=009060519-09072008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=009060519-09072008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>I haven't tried making my own pinblocks, or tuning pins yet; although I know it's possible.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=009060519-09072008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=009060519-09072008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>When I had to work on some of the  Weiler pianos from St. Petersburg that were coming in during the 1990s, I discovered a lot of the pins would break on some pianos. The pins did not look very consistent in quality, and I ultimately found out from the rep that they made the tuning pins up themselves at the piano factory from the spools of thick "tuning pin wire", and hand swaged them, etc. Some of the pianos had to have all the pins removed and new Denro or higher quality pins installed, under warranty, because of the tuning pin breakage issue.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=009060519-09072008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=009060519-09072008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>~Kendall Ross Bean</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=009060519-09072008> <DIV align=left> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=533361603-16112007>PianoFinders</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=533361603-16112007><A title=http://www.pianofinders.com/ href="http://www.pianofinders.com/">www.pianofinders.com</A></SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=533361603-16112007>e-mail: <A title=mailto:kenbean@pianofinders.com href="mailto:kenbean@pianofinders.com">kenbean@pianofinders.com</A></SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=533361603-16112007></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=533361603-16112007><EM>Connecting Pianos and People</EM></SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=533361603-16112007><EM></EM></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=533361603-16112007><EM><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>We conclude<SPAN class=009060519-09072008>d</SPAN> that it works <SPAN class=009060519-09072008>better</SPAN> on paper <SPAN class=009060519-09072008>than it does</SPAN> on wood." </FONT></EM> <DIV><SPAN class=533361603-16112007><SPAN class=606125201-09072008><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT size=2><EM>    -</EM> A company that had just built a prototype of a new woodworking tool from the inventor's plans.</FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV></SPAN></DIV></DIV></SPAN></DIV></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=507200520-09072008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=507200520-09072008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=507200520-09072008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=507200520-09072008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=507200520-09072008> <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000000>? Hi Kendall<BR>? Our pin of choice are Blued, Diamond brand pins. On occasions we use the Japanese pins.? The difference for us is that the Diamond Blued pins clearly have a cut thread that is not blued over & they are far more consistent in true size.? The Nippon Denro typically run on average .002 smaller than the stated size, which can be a good thing when repinning an original block that doens't need a true sized pin.? They also make a 3 1/2 size pin.? Nifty aye?<BR>? The diamond nickel /chrome plated pins appear to have had the threads cut & then plated?over which I dislike & don't trust this though I ahve used them at one time.<BR>? For my Shop made 1/4 cut maple blocks I've had the best uniform fit from the Diamond made pins.<BR>? For years Trix miked all the pins in a set & put the largest in the bass & smallest in the trebles. Finding something truly round is about as consistent as finding something truly straight.? Just try running a micrometer on a few sets and on differing points on the pin & you'll see. It's a good thing wood is pliable & forgiving.<BR>?? My friends once had a set of the Diamond that was oblong/out of round?but to my knowledge this was the only one we've ever heard of. This anomaly occurred during the time when we mic'd every pin... every set.? ughh.? SO diamonds are? more expensive but not when you consider we don't mic pins very often anymore?& they are as reliable as any we've tried<BR>??<BR><BR>?regards</FONT></DIV><X-SIGSEP><PRE>-- </PRE></X-SIGSEP> <DIV><BR>Regards,<BR><BR>Jon Page</DIV></SPAN></DIV><BR> <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left> <HR tabIndex=-1> <FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> erwinspiano@aol.com [mailto:erwinspiano@aol.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, July 09, 2008 6:45 AM<BR><B>To:</B> pianotech@ptg.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: Nature of tuning pins<BR></FONT><BR></DIV> <DIV></DIV>                 <FONT face="Comic Sans MS, sans-serif" size=3>For what it's worth I like the look of shiny Nickel pins better and they matche more things shiny on the pianos these days ... If diamond would cut the thread after plating, I'd use them. Originality has nothing whatsoeverto do with my thought process.....but that's jsut me.<BR>                  Dale</FONT><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 3px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><FONT face="Comic Sans MS, sans-serif">  Hi Kendall<BR>  Our pin of choice are Blued, Diamond brand pins. On occasions we use the Japanese pins.  The difference for us is that the Diamond Blued pins clearly have a cut thread that is not blued over & they are far more consistent in true size.  The Nippon Denro typically run on average .002 smaller than the stated size, which can be a good thing when repinning an original block that doens't need a true sized pin.  They also make a 3 1/2 size pin.  Nifty aye?<BR>  The diamond nickel /chrome plated pins appear to have had the threads cut & then plated over which I dislike & don't trust this though I ahve used them at one time.<BR>  For my Shop made 1/4 cut maple blocks I've had the best uniform fit from the Diamond made pins.<BR>  For years Trix miked all the pins in a set & put the largest in the bass & smallest in the trebles. Finding something truly round is about as consistent as finding something truly straight.  Just try running a micrometer on a few sets and on differing points on the pin & you'll see. It's a good thing wood is pliable & forgiving.<BR>   My friends once had a set of the Diamond that was oblong/out of round but to my knowledge this was the only one we've ever heard of. This anomaly occurred during the time when we mic'd every pin... every set.  ughh.  SO diamonds are  more expensive but not when you consider we don't mic pins very often anymore & they are as reliable as any we've tried<BR>  <BR><BR> regards<BR>Dale Erwin</FONT><BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR> <DIV id=AOLMsgPart_2_0ee0cece-0978-4fd9-a432-c7158545f95e><WBR><FONT face="Comic Sans MS, sans-serif">  Hi Kendall<BR>  Our pin of choice are Blued, Diamond brand pins. On occasions we use the Japanese pins.  The difference for us is that the Diamond Blued pins clearly have a cut thread that is not blued over & they are far more consistent in true size.  The Nippon Denro typically run on average .002 smaller than the stated size, which can be a good thing when repinning an original block that doens't need a true sized pin.  They also make a 3 1/2 size pin.  Nifty aye?<BR>  The diamond nickel /chrome plated pins appear to have had the threads cut & then plated over which I dislike & don't trust this though I ahve used them at one time.<BR>  For my Shop made 1/4 cut maple blocks I've had the best uniform fit from the Diamond made pins.<BR>  For years Trix miked all the pins in a set & put the largest in the bass & smallest in the trebles. Finding something truly round is about as consistent as finding something truly straight.  Just try running a micrometer on a few sets and on differing points on the pin & you'll see. It's a good thing wood is pliable & forgiving.<BR>   My friends once had a set of the Diamond that was oblong/out of round but to my knowledge this was the only one we've ever heard of. This anomaly occurred during the time when we mic'd every pin... every set.  ughh.  SO diamonds are  more expensive but not when you consider we don't mic pins very often anymore & they are as reliable as any we've tried<BR>  <BR><BR> regards<BR>Dale Erwin</FONT><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR> <DIV id=AOLMsgPart_3_0de5deb4-9f56-48e7-9303-566d8dbecfd8> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=909222614-07072008>Hi, I haven't posted to the listserve before so let's see if this works.</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=909222614-07072008></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=909222614-07072008>I had some questions about the different types of tuning pins and wondered if someone here could answer them. (I'm <EM>trying</EM> to write an article about tuning pins).</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=909222614-07072008></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=909222614-07072008>It might be nice to have some discussion on something that many technicians seem to take for granted: why tuning pins come in the types and form that they currently do.</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=909222614-07072008></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=909222614-07072008>(This may have all been covered before somewhere in the Archives, but if it was, I couldn't find it. So if it's there, I apologize in advance; could someone just point me to where it is? Thanks.)</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=909222614-07072008></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=909222614-07072008>I've attached a photo for reference. </SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=909222614-07072008></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=909222614-07072008>The photo refers to the three basic types of tuning pins we routinely see. (These were all photographed together at the same time on the same white background. The photo is "unretouched." -The colors in the photo seem to be fatihful to the genuine articles.)</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=909222614-07072008></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=909222614-07072008>On the far left is a blued steel pin, in the middle a nickel plated pin, and on the far right a nickel plated/blued thread pin. (The end pins are Nippon Denro, the middle pin I think from an Asian piano, maybe Kawai, as it seems to be metric.)</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=909222614-07072008></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=909222614-07072008>The pin in the middle has generally fallen into disrepute (I think I know why, because the threads are plated, right?) -but perhaps we need to re-examine this. Maybe this type of pin is still valid for certain extreme humidity applications?</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=909222614-07072008></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=909222614-07072008>The following questions pertain mainly to the "blued" vs "nickel-blued pins".</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=909222614-07072008></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=909222614-07072008>The questions I have are:</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=909222614-07072008></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=909222614-07072008>1) Why are the threads on the "blued steel" pin a different color than on the "nickel-blued" pin? (also - Why aren't the the threads on the "blued" pin the same color as the unthreaded portion of the pin?)</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=909222614-07072008></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=909222614-07072008>2) If the threads on the "nickel-blued" pin are cut after nickel plating, (which should remove the plating on the threads right?) and then are heated in the bluing oven, why aren't they the same color blue as the unthreaded part of the "blued" pin? </SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=909222614-07072008></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=909222614-07072008>3) I am speculating that perhaps the threads on the blued pin are cut after bluing (which removes the bluing, to a certain extent, just like it removes the layer of nickel plating on the nickel blued pin) while the threads on the nickel blued pin are blued after cutting. Does the order in which the operations are done affect the quality of the thread? Does having to cut through nickel plating produce an inferior thread?</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=909222614-07072008></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=909222614-07072008>4) Would anyone here care to restate why the blued pins (as opposed to nickel-blued) are preferred over the nickel-blued by many piano technicians?</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=909222614-07072008></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=909222614-07072008>5) What is the real purpose of the threads on the tuning pin, (besides to help back the pin out in restringing. One source I have read says the threads make it easier to turn the pin in the pinblock (as opposed to an unthreaded pin). Any thoughts on this?</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=909222614-07072008></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=909222614-07072008>6) Today apparently all tuning pins have "cut" threads, as opposed to "rolled" threads. Why is this? What does "rolled" threads mean? Why would they be inferior to cut threads?"</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=909222614-07072008></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=909222614-07072008>7) Catherine Beilefeldt, in her book "The Wonders of the Piano", in describing the process at AMSCO (when it was still around), says that there both the nickel-blued and blued pins were blued after threading. Does anyone know if Nippon Denro does it differently? How about Fly Brand? Diamond?</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=909222614-07072008></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=909222614-07072008>8) What, exactly, are the infamous "reverse cut" threads that were touted so highly by certain sales reps and dealers of Japanese pianos?</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=909222614-07072008></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=909222614-07072008>9) What about Larry Fine's and Art Reblitz's contention that if this were really the case (if the "reverse cut" or "reverse thread" pin turned more easily in one direction than the other) it would wear the pin block out faster?</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=909222614-07072008></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=909222614-07072008>10) Why, really, did manufacturers (except Bosendorfer) stop using tapered pins? </SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=909222614-07072008></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=909222614-07072008>I have a number of books that touch on the manufacture of piano tuning pins, but none that really seems to have more than a superficial understanding of why tuning pins are made the way they are today. </SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=909222614-07072008></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=909222614-07072008>If anyone knows of a reference work or resource that would have the history of the development of tuning pins, or an article in the PTJ (or even a thread in the CAUT or Pianotech archives) that addresses these issues, I would be very grateful if they would let me know where I can find it. You can either post your answers on the listserve, ideally, where all could benefit, or e-mail me personally at address below, if you prefer.</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=909222614-07072008></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=909222614-07072008>Sincerely,</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=909222614-07072008></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=909222614-07072008>Kendall Ross Bean</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=909222614-07072008>PianoFinders </SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=909222614-07072008></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=533361603-16112007><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN class=909222614-07072008>(</SPAN>e-mail: </FONT></FONT><A title=mailto:kenbean@pianofinders.com href="mailto:kenbean@pianofinders.com"><FONT face=Arial size=2>kenbean@pianofinders.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2>)<SPAN class=909222614-07072008></SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV align=left> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT> </DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></BODY></HTML>