<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1"> <STYLE>.hmmessage P { PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; MARGIN: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px } BODY.hmmessage { FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma } </STYLE> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.3354" name=GENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY class=hmmessage> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=125201917-09072008><FONT face=Arial>Marcel~</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=125201917-09072008><FONT face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=125201917-09072008><FONT face=Arial>Thank you for these observations! You bring up some excellent points.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=125201917-09072008><FONT face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=125201917-09072008><FONT face=Arial>The idea of measuring "cents" of twist before the pin turns in the block is an intriguing one. I will have to try that! It certainly seems that harder pins (on the Rockwell scale) might well address the issue of excessive pin twisting in tight holes and tight blocks. (As might also a larger diameter pin, see below. -And, of course, not drilling the holes so small that you can't turn the pins.)</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=125201917-09072008><FONT face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=125201917-09072008><FONT face=Arial>And yes, I have noticed that the Japanese (Kawai and Yamaha) pianos usually come from the factory with small diameter nickel plated metric pins, corresponding to 0 1/2 size in my old Renner catalog (approximately .271 to 272." pin size). When I restring these pianos retaining the original pinblock, I usually go to a #1/0 or 2/0 pin. </FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=125201917-09072008><FONT face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=125201917-09072008><FONT face=Arial>Just for folks information, The European (metric) sizes listed in the Renner Hauptcatalog 891 are as follows: </FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=125201917-09072008><FONT face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=125201917-09072008><FONT face=Arial>Size</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=125201917-09072008><FONT face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=125201917-09072008><FONT face=Arial>2 - 6.60mm or approx. .260"</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=125201917-09072008><FONT face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=125201917-09072008><FONT face=Arial>1 - 6.75mm or approx .266"</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=125201917-09072008><FONT face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=125201917-09072008><FONT face=Arial>0 1/2 - 6.90mm or approx .272"</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=125201917-09072008><FONT face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=125201917-09072008><FONT face=Arial>0 (what we call #1 or 1/0) - 7.00mm or .276"</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=125201917-09072008><FONT face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=125201917-09072008><FONT face=Arial>2/0 - 7.10mm or approx .280"</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=125201917-09072008><FONT face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=125201917-09072008><FONT face=Arial>3/0 - 7.25mm or approx. .285"</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=125201917-09072008><FONT face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=125201917-09072008><FONT face=Arial>4/0 - 7.35mm or approx. .289"</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=125201917-09072008><FONT face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=125201917-09072008><FONT face=Arial>5/0 - 7.50mm or approx. .295"</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=125201917-09072008><FONT face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=125201917-09072008><FONT face=Arial>6/0 - 7.65mm or approx  .301"</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=125201917-09072008><FONT face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=125201917-09072008><FONT face=Arial>As you can see, we may see pianos from Europe or Asia with some very small diameter pins.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=125201917-09072008><FONT face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=125201917-09072008><FONT face=Arial>These pins are also listed as available in 5 different lengths: 52, 55, 57, 60, and 64mm (corresponding with approximately 2.05 to 2.52. inches. They are offered in either blued or nckel plated (but no nickel/blued).</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=125201917-09072008><FONT face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=125201917-09072008><FONT face=Arial>I read once somewhere that Steinway went to #2/0 pins for the factory stringing because the added string height above the pinblock caused by the thickness of the plate webbing (as opposed to an open face pinblock) (and probably also the absence of tuning pin bushings) required a stouter pin that wouldn't flex (or flagpole) so much. I think it was in an article in the PianoTechnician's Journal comparing pianos where the plate webbing covered the pinblock vs those with open face pinblocks (Paul Larudee's article in Jan 2002 and Feb 2002 PTJ).</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=125201917-09072008><FONT face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=125201917-09072008><FONT face=Arial>Looks don't always get in the way of performance, but we do have to be aware of when they do.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=125201917-09072008><FONT face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=125201917-09072008><FONT face=Arial>and- ah yes, new pianos with tight pins - the bane of every technician.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=125201917-09072008><FONT face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=125201917-09072008><FONT face=Arial>-just like new pianos with stiff, sluggish actions are the bane of every pianist.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=125201917-09072008><FONT face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=125201917-09072008><FONT face=Arial>When will they learn that tuning pins don't have to read 200 inch lbs or more after driving. (Maybe they are used to drilling a block with really sloppy holes? Has to be drilled in 15 minutes?)</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=125201917-09072008><FONT face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=125201917-09072008><FONT face=Arial>I notice that Reblitz in the second edition of his P.S.T.& R. book recommends a pin tightness immediately after driving of 95 to 110 inch lbs. This, to me, is a bit on the low side, I prefer to see somewhere between 125 to 145 inch lbs. (But I think Reblitz uses the Delignit block, which in my experience tends to take a much longer time to loosen up, or ultimately fails to loosen up at all, after driving the pins, unlike the medium laminate maple or 1/4 sawn 5 ply maple blocks I prefer to use) For me 125 to 145 results in a nice tunable piano by the time the chippings and shop tunings are done. From 150 up to 200 inch lbs I feel that someone is making sure that the piano will not be tunable for years after stringing, especially with one of those dense multilaminate blocks. And of course, taking your time, cooling the bit, and drilling nice uniform holes that aren't burnt or oval helps tremendously.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=125201917-09072008><FONT face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=125201917-09072008><FONT face=Arial>I know some rebuilders and manufacturers want to make sure "those tuning pins will never get loose" but I doubt that they are thinking about the tuner and the problems they are creating for him/her. </FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=125201917-09072008><FONT face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=125201917-09072008><FONT face=Arial>~Kendall Ross Bean</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=125201917-09072008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=125201917-09072008> <DIV align=left> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=533361603-16112007>PianoFinders</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=533361603-16112007><A title=http://www.pianofinders.com href="http://www.pianofinders.com/">www.pianofinders.com</A></SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=533361603-16112007>e-mail: <A title=mailto:kenbean@pianofinders.com href="mailto:kenbean@pianofinders.com">kenbean@pianofinders.com</A></SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=533361603-16112007></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=533361603-16112007><EM>Connecting Pianos and People</EM></SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=125201917-09072008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=125201917-09072008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff></FONT></SPAN> </DIV><BR> <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left> <HR tabIndex=-1> <FONT face=Tahoma><B>From:</B> Marcel Carey [mailto:mcpianos@hotmail.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, July 09, 2008 3:10 AM<BR><B>To:</B> Pianotech List<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: Nature of tuning pins, why technicians prefer blue<BR></FONT><BR></DIV> <DIV></DIV><BR><BR><BR>I've been reading this thread with interest. One thing that has not been mentioned is the steel hardness of different tuning pins brands. I agree with Dave N. that Diamonds are the best specially for uniformity. And they are also the hardest on the Rockwell tests.<BR> <BR>I find this is something that bothers me a lot when tuning new pianos with tight pins. The pins will twist before they turn in the block. I've measured over 40� dofference with just pin twisting before I could feel them turn in the block. Of course, the fact that some manufacturers use #0 tuning pins doesn't help.<BR> <BR>So, for me actual performance is more important than looks. This is the point I wanted to add to this discussion.<BR> <BR>Marcel Carey,<BR>Sherbrooke, QC<BR><BR> <HR> Envoie un sourire, fais rire, amuse-toi! <A href="http://www.emoticonesgratuites.ca/?icid=EMFRCA120" target=_new>Employez-le maintenant!</A> </BODY></HTML>