<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <html> <head> <title>Re: String noises revisited</title> <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"/> </head> <body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space"> <div>Hi Allen,</div> <div> </div> <div>Is this a Hamburg B?   Were you able to get the exact agraffe to match the original?</div> <div> </div> <div>David Ilvedson, RPT<br/>Pacifica, CA 94044<br/></div> <div style="padding-right: 5px; padding-left: 5px; padding-bottom: 5px; border-left: #000000 3px solid; padding-top: 5px"> <hr/>Original message<br/>From: "Allen Wright" <akwright@btopenworld.com> </akwright@btopenworld.com><br/>To: "Ed Sutton" <ed440@mindspring.com> </ed440@mindspring.com>, "Pianotech List" <pianotech@ptg.org> </pianotech@ptg.org><br/>Received: 7/16/2008 12:49:54 PM<br/>Subject: Re: String noises revisited<br/><br/> <p align="left">I replaced two agraffes on the most noticeable offenders today, and both notes were greatly improved; perhaps 60 - 70% less high whistle. The first one I replaced was on F#3, the note the customer was most annoyed by. That note was then so much quieter that the F next to it jumped out as being the worst, so I thought I'd better try it on that one as well. Obviously this could go on forever, and be quite time-consuming - so I've stopped it at that.</p> <div><br/></div> <div>I do seem to notice some slight abrasions (in one of the holes especially) of the agraffes. The best guess I can make is that this noise, which is so common in that section of B's and D's, may be some kind of inherent scaling "characteristic" (tactful, no?) which is exacerbated by any imperfection in the corresponding agraffe. It's just not logical that this can only be related to agraffe problems; it wouldn't just be in that section. </div> <div><br/></div> <div>Like so many things dealing with piano tone, I haven't found a black-and-white solution. But at least it's greatly improved - so that all the notes in that section have the same amount of this noise - and the customer knows I've gone the whole nine yards. </div> <div><br/></div> <div>Allen Wright</div> <div><br/></div> <div><br/></div> <div><br/> <div> <div>On Jul 13, 2008, at 3:32 AM, Ed Sutton wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"/> <blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="word-spacing: 0px; font: 12px Helvetica; text-transform: none; color: rgb(0,0,0); text-indent: 0px; white-space: normal; letter-spacing: normal; border-collapse: separate; orphans: 2; widows: 2; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0"> <div><font face="Arial" size="2">Allen,</font></div> <div><font face="Arial" size="2">Not a lot of hope, short of redesigning the piano.</font></div> <div><font face="Arial" size="2">The longitudinal partial is being excited by the combined energies of the 7th and 8th partials.</font></div> <div><font face="Arial" size="2">If you can get the hammer to strike at exactly 1/7th or 1/8th of the string length, it may reduce the energy enough to stop the sound. This may be the reason for the old design rule to strike at 1/7th of the string length.</font></div> <div><font face="Arial" size="2">On smaller pianos the longitudinal mode may be at the 17th or 19th partials of plain wire strings.</font></div> <div><font face="Arial" size="2">Ed Sutton</font></div> <blockquote dir="ltr" style="padding-right: 0px; padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; border-left: rgb(0,0,0) 2px solid; margin-right: 0px"> <div style="font: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----</div> <div style="font: 10pt arial; background-color: rgb(228,228,228); -webkit-background-clip: initial; -webkit-background-origin: initial"><b>From:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a title="akwright@btopenworld.com" href="C:\DOCUME~1\DAVIDI~1\LOCALS~1\Temp\Intellect\Mail\Compose\">Allen Wright</a></div> <div style="font: 10pt arial"><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a title="ed440@mindspring.com" href="C:\DOCUME~1\DAVIDI~1\LOCALS~1\Temp\Intellect\Mail\Compose\">Ed Sutton</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>;<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a title="pianotech@ptg.org" href="C:\DOCUME~1\DAVIDI~1\LOCALS~1\Temp\Intellect\Mail\Compose\">Pianotech List</a></div> <div style="font: 10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Saturday, July 12, 2008 6:23 PM</div> <div style="font: 10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: String noises revisited</div> <div><br/></div>Ed, <div><br/></div> <div>This sounds like an exact description of what I'm dealing with. Octave three - 15th partial - disappears with pitch change; all yes.</div> <div><br/></div> <div>I want to read Jim's book now....does he suggest any fix for this, or is it a scaling problem (or simply unavoidable) or what?</div> <div><br/></div> <div>Allen</div> <div><br/></div> <div><br/> <div> <div>On Jul 12, 2008, at 2:38 AM, Ed Sutton wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"/> <blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="word-spacing: 0px; font: 14px Helvetica; text-transform: none; color: rgb(0,0,0); text-indent: 0px; white-space: normal; letter-spacing: normal; border-collapse: separate; orphans: 2; widows: 2; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"> <div><font face="Arial" size="2">Allen-</font></div> <div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px; color: rgb(0,0,221); -webkit-text-stroke-width: -1px"> </span><font face="Arial" size="2"> </font></div> <div><font face="Arial" size="2">If I understand Jim Ellis' book, in a 7 foot grand piano, longitudinal mode noises will tend to occur in octave 3, and they will tend almost always to be at or near the frequency of the 15th partial. There will probably be a slight delay after the attack and before the sound develops. If you make slight changes in the pitch of the string, the longitudinal mode sound will not change pitch, but will disappear when the pitch has changed such that the modes that excite the longitudinal mode are outside of its resonance band.</font></div> <div><font face="Arial" size="2"> </font></div></span> </blockquote> </div> <div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="word-spacing: 0px; font: 12px Helvetica; text-transform: none; color: rgb(0,0,0); text-indent: 0px; white-space: normal; letter-spacing: normal; border-collapse: separate; orphans: 2; widows: 2; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="word-spacing: 0px; font: 12px Helvetica; text-transform: none; color: rgb(0,0,0); text-indent: 0px; white-space: normal; letter-spacing: normal; border-collapse: separate; orphans: 2; widows: 2; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="word-spacing: 0px; font: 12px Helvetica; text-transform: none; color: rgb(0,0,0); text-indent: 0px; white-space: normal; letter-spacing: normal; border-collapse: separate; orphans: 2; widows: 2; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="word-spacing: 0px; font: 12px Helvetica; text-transform: none; color: rgb(0,0,0); text-indent: 0px; white-space: normal; letter-spacing: normal; border-collapse: separate; orphans: 2; widows: 2; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto"><br/> <div><br class="khtml-block-placeholder"/></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"/></span></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"/></span></span> </div><br/> </div> </blockquote></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"/> </blockquote> </div><br/> <div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="word-spacing: 0px; font: 12px Helvetica; text-transform: none; color: rgb(0,0,0); text-indent: 0px; white-space: normal; letter-spacing: normal; border-collapse: separate; orphans: 2; widows: 2; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="word-spacing: 0px; font: 12px Helvetica; text-transform: none; color: rgb(0,0,0); text-indent: 0px; white-space: normal; letter-spacing: normal; border-collapse: separate; orphans: 2; widows: 2; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="word-spacing: 0px; font: 12px Helvetica; text-transform: none; color: rgb(0,0,0); text-indent: 0px; white-space: normal; letter-spacing: normal; border-collapse: separate; orphans: 2; widows: 2; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="word-spacing: 0px; font: 12px Helvetica; text-transform: none; color: rgb(0,0,0); text-indent: 0px; white-space: normal; letter-spacing: normal; border-collapse: separate; orphans: 2; widows: 2; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto"> <div><br/></div> <div><br class="khtml-block-placeholder"/></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"/></span></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"/></span></span> </div><br/> </div> </div> </body> </html>