<html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "> Jon,<div><br></div><div>One of my favorite listening tests in the bass for consistency of octave size on the way down is the beats that are created in the octave at the 10-5 level, which are quite noticeable (especially in medium to small pianos). They get pretty slow on larger grands, but still useable most of the way down - even if it's just to see what side of the 10-5 you're on). The contiguous partials that you'll hear beating are at the pitch of three octaves and a third up from the bottom note of the octave; play that note softly first in order to get the pitch fixed before you listen for it in the octave, if you're unsure how to hear it.</div><div><br></div><div>You can combine that with the m3-M6 test inside the octave (once you've found an octave size that you like by the sound of it in terms of clarity and tone) in order to start a pattern of slight descending beat speeds with the 10-5 test. I hope that makes sense. Anything that helps you stick to some sort of pattern that will give you consistent octave size on the way down.</div><div><br></div><div>Because that's what we're going for, isn't it? If one octave beats at, say 2 bps at the 10-5 level, and then the next octave down is more expanded so that it's beatless, then those two octaves sound quite different (because all the other contiguous partials that have any activity are all beating at different rates, so the quality of sound of those two octaves is quite different).</div><div><br></div><div>It's all partly a matter of choice and taste, but at least we should make the choice consistent. I find those two tests the most useful for me in the bass section on most pianos I tune.</div><div><br></div><div>Good luck,</div><div><br></div><div>Allen Wright</div><div><br></div><div><br><div><div>On Jul 18, 2008, at 2:55 PM, Michael Magness wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><br><br> <div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 3:09 AM, Willem Blees <<a href="mailto:wimblees@aol.com">wimblees@aol.com</a>> wrote:<br> <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">Jon<br><br>A lot has to do with the quality of the piano. For good quality grands, I use the checks you do, or the two octave and a 7th. On less quality grands and most vertical pianos, I mostly listen to octaves and double octaves. <br> <br> <div style="CLEAR: both">Willem (Wim) Blees, RPT<br>Piano Tuner/Technician<br>Honolulu, HI<br>808-349-2943<br><a href="http://www.bleespiano.com/" target="_blank">www.bleespiano.com</a><br>Author of <br>The Business of Piano Tuning<br> available from Potter Press<br><a href="http://www.pianotuning.com/" target="_blank">www.pianotuning.com</a></div> <div> <div></div> <div class="Wj3C7c"><br><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From: Jonathan Golding <<a href="mailto:jgmdpiano@gmail.com" target="_blank">jgmdpiano@gmail.com</a>><br>To: <a href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org" target="_blank">pianotech@ptg.org</a><br> Sent: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 4:07 pm<br>Subject: question for aural tuners<br><br> <div> <div dir="ltr">When tuning the last octave of the piano's bass section I would like to know people's opinions on how they get the best results. For me, I find this a tricky area to get consistently good results. Some bass strings sound dead whereas others are harsh sounding and some have lots of overtones. As well, each piano seems to have a different amount of stretch to take into consideration. When tuning the last octave I usually check using the Maj 17th against the Maj 10th for approximate equal beating. When I play the octaves together harmonically I find that this leaves the last octave sounding too high to my ear. Any comments or suggestions? Any single partial for this area which could be helpful?<br> Thanks, Jon<br></div></div></div></div> <div><font style="FONT: 10pt ARIAL, SAN-SERIF; COLOR: black"> <hr style="MARGIN-TOP: 10px"> The Famous, the Infamous, the Lame - in your browser. <a title="http://toolbar.aol.com/tmz/download.html?NCID=aolcmp00050000000014" href="http://toolbar.aol.com/tmz/download.html?NCID=aolcmp00050000000014" target="_blank">Get the TMZ Toolbar Now</a>!</font> </div> </blockquote></div> <div><br>Hi Jon,</div> <div>I have to agree with Willem that the quality will dictate which method works best, I have also discovered since I began using them that earplugs (20db) help cut down on some of the "garbage" allowing me to hear more easily what I trained myself for over 35 years to find among that "garbage". I use the maj 17th as a final check "walking" up the keyboard and listening for that smooth progression of beat rates. When I find one that is faster or slower I check it for tune and begin again.</div> <div> </div> <div>Mike<br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence. <br>Vince Lombardi<br><br>Michael Magness<br>Magness Piano Service<br>608-786-4404<br><a href="http://www.IFixPianos.com">www.IFixPianos.com</a><br> email <a href="mailto:mike@ifixpianos.com">mike@ifixpianos.com</a> </div></div></blockquote></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><br><div><br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></span></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></span></span> </div><br></div></body></html>