<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40" xmlns:v = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m = "http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml"><HEAD> <META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1"> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.6000.16674" name=GENERATOR> <STYLE>@font-face { font-family: Helvetica; } @font-face { font-family: Helvetica; } @font-face { font-family: Calibri; } @font-face { font-family: Tahoma; } @font-face { font-family: Garamond; } @page Section1 {size: 8.5in 11.0in; margin: 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in; } P.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman","serif" } LI.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman","serif" } DIV.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman","serif" } A:link { COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; mso-style-priority: 99 } SPAN.MsoHyperlink { COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; mso-style-priority: 99 } A:visited { COLOR: purple; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; mso-style-priority: 99 } SPAN.MsoHyperlinkFollowed { COLOR: purple; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; mso-style-priority: 99 } SPAN.apple-style-span { mso-style-name: apple-style-span } SPAN.EmailStyle18 { COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-style-type: personal-reply } .MsoChpDefault { FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-style-type: export-only } DIV.Section1 { page: Section1 } </STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY lang=EN-US style="WORD-WRAP: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space" vLink=purple link=blue bgColor=white> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I have no idea.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Fenton</FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=gnewell@ameritech.net href="mailto:gnewell@ameritech.net">Greg Newell</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=pianotech@ptg.org href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">'Pianotech List'</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, July 22, 2008 3:22 PM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: chickering quarter grand-re-scale trichords</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV class=Section1> <P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Fenton and list,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P> <P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">                Would that original gold colored wire be the same as the phosphor-bronze used in harpsichords?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P> <P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Greg Newell<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P> <P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Greg's Piano Forté<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P> <P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><A href="http://www.gregspianoforte.com">www.gregspianoforte.com</A><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P> <P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">216-226-3791 (office)<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P> <P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">216-470-8634 (mobile)<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV> <P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P> <DIV> <DIV style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> <A href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org">pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</A> [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Fenton Murray<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, July 22, 2008 11:57 AM<BR><B>To:</B> Pianotech List<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: chickering quarter grand-re-scale trichords<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><o:p> </o:p></P> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Thanks Joe,</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Excellent point and yet another that I hadn't considered.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">I rebuilt a</SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Garamond','serif'"> </SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Schomacker grand that had a gold colored plain wire, original. I have no idea what it was but I did save some. I did re-scale that piano in PScale although I realize now I was unaware of the original tensions.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Garamond','serif'">Fenton</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5pt 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">----- Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> <A title=defaziomusic@verizon.net href="mailto:defaziomusic@verizon.net">Joe DeFazio</A> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">To:</SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> <A title=pianotech@ptg.org href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</A> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Sent:</SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> Monday, July 21, 2008 10:01 PM<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Subject:</SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> Re: chickering quarter grand-re-scale trichords<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><o:p> </o:p></P></DIV> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt"> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'">From: </SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'">"Fenton Murray" <<A href="mailto:fmurray@cruzio.com">fmurray@cruzio.com</A>></SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5pt 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Also, recently someone pointed out that changing wire sizes (plain wire) did not change the breaking point % of a note. After a few sample problems in P-Scale I confirmed this. This was really a forehead slapper for me. If this is true, bridge re-scaling is the only option for changing BP %.</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Fenton</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><SPAN class=apple-style-span><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'">From: </SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'">Ron Nossaman <<A href="mailto:rnossaman@cox.net">rnossaman@cox.net</A>></SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><BR><BR></SPAN><SPAN class=apple-style-span><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><SPAN style="COLOR: black">   Also, recently someone pointed out that changing wire sizes (plain</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P> <BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt"> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><SPAN style="COLOR: black">   wire) did not change the breaking point % of a note. After a few<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt"> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><SPAN style="COLOR: black">   sample problems in P-Scale I confirmed this. This was really a<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt"> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><SPAN style="COLOR: black">   forehead slapper for me. If this is true, bridge re-scaling is the<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt"> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><SPAN style="COLOR: black">   only option for changing BP %.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><BR><SPAN class=apple-style-span>On plain wires, yup. You can change tension, but to change break%, you gotta change speaking length.</SPAN><BR><BR><SPAN class=apple-style-span>Ron N</SPAN></SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><o:p> </o:p></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in">Hi Fenton,<o:p></o:p></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><o:p> </o:p></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in">I pointed out the "constant BP problem" a week or so ago only after slapping my own forehead repeatedly.  Unfortunately, slapping my forehead repeatedly still left the problem intact and my cognitive abilities less so.<o:p></o:p></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><o:p> </o:p></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in">Ron is 99.99% right in his reply.  I don't think it will help you much, if at all, but for logical completeness, I'll add that there is another way to change break% instead of changing the speaking length:  change the wire composition.  Stainless steel wire, or phosphor bronze, or yellow brass, or anything else will have a different modulus of elasticity, density, and the like, and these physical properties will change the break% when a given speaking length is tensioned to the given pitch. Unfortunately, I know of nothing available that will have a lower break% (meaning a stronger wire) than modern steel piano wire.  <o:p></o:p></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><o:p> </o:p></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in">I'm only mentioning this for two reasons.  One is that, in working through scaling formulae there is usually a constant that relates to the wire composition.  If using a different type of wire, It is this constant that would be changed.  It is pretty common to take constants for granted, and I always remind myself to take a hard look at the "taken for granted" parts of any problem when trying to arrive at creative solutions.<o:p></o:p></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><o:p> </o:p></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in">The other reason is that I'm hoping against all odds that one of the engineers/physicists out there on the list might know about any modern materials that might be investigated for higher strength/lower break%.  If there are any out there that might realistically be tried (carbon nanotubes are about a million times too expensive at the moment), I'd sure like to know about them….  <o:p></o:p></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><o:p> </o:p></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in">Joe DeFazio<o:p></o:p></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in">Pittsburgh<o:p></o:p></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><o:p> </o:p></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in">P. S. - Personally, I'm guessing that breakthroughs in material science will be the next big thing in piano design and rebuilding (though CNC routing and machining is pretty exciting, too, as is 3D printing).<o:p></o:p></P></DIV> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><o:p> </o:p></P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>