<br> <br> <FONT face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size=3><FONT face="Comic Sans MS, sans-serif">  Thank you Tom<br>   Beautiful post full of wisdom gleaned from hard fought experience. I believe this may help Andrew & Paul to develop their pianos without spending all the money to start over. Rule of thumb. Big piano are like high maintenance race cars/horses/Women. grin.  We simply learn to treat them in a way that maximizes there performance. Anyone agree? <br>   I truly hope all will re-read Toms sage & succinct post here. It seems like every time I hear someone saying that  juice was required to get a tone, it's stated  as if this was an negative consequence. And yet when someone says they had to needle each hammer about 50 times a side it appears that this is just some form of accepted elbow & wrist torture that one must go thru to get the Golden tone. And yet obviously needling is required in many pianos and is valid method for voicing hammers.<br>    The fact that a hammer felt requires this much acupuncture is an indicator that much of natural properties we rely on for tone may have been killed in pressing, or the felt wasn't that good to begin with. <br>  As Tom points out on some of the Wurzen AA sets you file less, sometimes more.  Is this also a negative consequence? We know it isn't. It's a step in the final tone development. SO, some needling & some juicing is  required on many occasions and it is a necessary skill set that each of us must embrace on the journey in the voicing art form when becoming a true voicer. If we do not we may erroneously conlude that some hammer or another isn't any good or can't get there when in fact we haven't given it a fair hearing with the appropriate voicing protocols<br>    There is a Golden tone that a medium density hammer can produce with a light solution that many of us will state catagorically can not be produced in hard pressed hammers, And as Tom said the next person will not know by the feel of the needle, a hammer so treated, that any solution has been applied.  This one of the Beauties of the Ronsen way of making hammers. They are right there close to the tonal mark that Samuel Wolfendon describes refers to in his book "The Treatise on the art of Piano Forte construction". page 151 -152. "The hammer should require only mild needling to open up the hammer"<br> </FONT><FONT face="Comic Sans MS, sans-serif"> Yes I learned that felt is hollow from Jack. Why we didn't know this before I dunno...but, It explains why wool felt retains so much water. The fibers can fill up retain much water weight.<br>    I've always held that adding solutions to felt simply coated and stiffened the outside of the fiber but I now know that adding juice also stiffens the fiber on the inside as well, and because the felt was made and kept alive and springy, adding solutions to felt can stiffen fibers on the inside which works  very well for our voicing purposes, without the resilience being compromised. Sorry about the run ons.<br>    It's really all a balancing act of hammer felt stiffness the we  juggle with our voicing protocols as we approach our target tone on a specific piano in a specific acoustic environment. SO crucial to remember this. <br> </FONT>  <FONT face="Comic Sans MS, sans-serif">Heres' my felt test when I receive a new set of hammers from wherever. I use a no. 6 needle as a probe to test the density of the hammer. If the needle goes half way in & stops as it hits a hardened mass they go back. The felt is unworkable.  Conversely if they are too soft they also go back. This is an excellent way anybody can learn to pre judge a set of hammers before they get to the point of no return where consternation & gnashing of teeth ensues.<br> </FONT>    <FONT face="Comic Sans MS, sans-serif">Hope this helps. Hope no one is doing the teeth grind on my account<br>  Sincerely<br>   Dale Erwin</FONT><br> <br> </FONT>  <br> <br> <div id=AOLMsgPart_2_961d2d9e-3106-4d77-a603-b4e08634de0d> <div><FONT face="Century Schoolbook" size=3>Paul</FONT></div> <div><FONT face="Century Schoolbook" size=3>As someone who has installed about as many sets of Wurzen hammers in the USA as anybody, I too have found that the Wurzen hammers need juicing for the larger instruments.</FONT></div> <div><FONT face="Century Schoolbook" size=3><U>I've settled in on a 10:1 lacquer solution which adds just some extra support but not strong enough to affect needling or  diminish the elasticity issues. Anyone who would have checked to the piano afterwards would be hard-pressed to know that any additives were added.</U></FONT></div> <div><FONT face="Century Schoolbook" size=3>That being said, once juiced, the hammers perform beautifully and develop into a very musical quality. I've been quite pleased with the results.</FONT></div> <div><FONT face="Century Schoolbook" size=3>As with any hammer, half the battle is learning what you have to work with. Some require very little filing while others require a heavy filing. Some a lot of needling, some very little.</FONT></div> <div><FONT face="Century Schoolbook" size=3>Another little tid bit that I recently learned from Dale Erwin is that the fibers of the wool are actually hollow, something that was discovered in the R&R labs. Adding solutions to the hammer actually fills the fibers up and causes the fibers to react differently. You learn something new everyday!</FONT></div> <div><FONT face="Century Schoolbook" size=3>I too am thrilled to have the Weickert felt back into production. It's about time that rebuilders have some real arsenal to deal with.</FONT></div> <div><FONT face="Century Schoolbook" size=3>Tom Servinsky</FONT></div> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <div style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </div> <div style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=pwilliams4@unlnotes.unl.edu href="mailto:pwilliams4@unlnotes.unl.edu">Paul T Williams</A> </div> <div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=pianotech@ptg.org href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">Pianotech List</A> </div> <div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, October 14, 2008 5:12 PM</div> <div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: The all new Weickert felt hammer by Ronsen</div> <div><br> </div> <br> <FONT face=sans-serif size=2>I'm all ears for that as well!!  I love the naturals from Wally!!  I recently put Ronsen-Wurzen on our Baldwin D, but I had to really juice them a lot to get anything out of them, and the techs that responded said otherwise.  what's up with that???  They were more like raw Ronsens, which I would expected.  They sound great now, but it was a hassle!!!  I also Wapinized the bridges and you wouldn't believe the difference.. Glad I did it!!</FONT> <br> <br> <FONT face=sans-serif size=2>Paul'</FONT> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <TABLE width="100%"> <TBODY> <TR vAlign=top> <TD width="40%"><FONT face=sans-serif size=1><B>Andrew Anderson <<A href="mailto:anrebe@sbcglobal.net">anrebe@sbcglobal.net</A>></B> </FONT><br> <FONT face=sans-serif size=1>Sent by: <A href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org">pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</A></FONT> <div><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>10/14/2008 12:28 PM</FONT> <TABLE border=1> <TBODY> <TR vAlign=top> <TD bgColor=white> <div align=center><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>Please respond to<br> Pianotech List <<A href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</A>></FONT></div> </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><br> </div> <TD width="59%"> <TABLE width="100%"> <TBODY> <TR vAlign=top> <TD> <div align=right><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>To</FONT></div> <TD><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>Pianotech List <<A href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</A>></FONT> <TR vAlign=top> <TD> <div align=right><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>cc</FONT></div> <TD> <TR vAlign=top> <TD> <div align=right><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>Subject</FONT></div> <TD><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>Re: The all new Weickert felt  hammer by Ronsen</FONT></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><br> <TABLE> <TBODY> <TR vAlign=top> <TD> <TD></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><br> </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><br> <br> <br> <FONT size=3>How do these compare to Abel Naturals?  Or the Wurzen AAA felt hammers from Ronson?</FONT> <br> <br> <FONT size=3>Andrew Anderson</FONT> <br> <br> <FONT size=3>On Oct 14, 2008, at 9:09 AM, AlliedPianoCraft wrote:</FONT> <br> <br> <FONT face=Arial size=3>Dale!!!! </FONT><br> <FONT size=3> </FONT> <br> <FONT face=Arial size=3>Now you've gotten me all excited! </FONT><br> <FONT size=3> </FONT> <br> <FONT face=Arial size=3>I'll have to go and find a piano that needs new hammers.</FONT> <br> <FONT size=3> </FONT> <br> <FONT face=Arial size=3>Al Guecia</FONT> <br> <FONT size=3> </FONT> <br> <FONT size=3> </FONT> <br> <br> <FONT size=3><B>From:</B> </FONT><A href="mailto:erwinspiano@aol.com"><FONT color=blue size=3><U>erwinspiano@aol.com</U></FONT></A><FONT size=3> </FONT><br> <FONT size=3><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, October 14, 2008 9:40 AM</FONT> <br> <FONT size=3><B>To:</B> </FONT><A href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org"><FONT color=blue size=3><U>pianotech@ptg.org</U></FONT></A><FONT size=3> </FONT><br> <FONT size=3><B>Subject:</B> The all new Weickert felt hammer by Ronsen</FONT> <br> <br> <FONT size=3> <B><I>  I wanted to announce this exciting bit of news here first.<br>  Sincerely<br>  Dale Erwin</I></B></FONT> <br> <FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=5><U>  Ronsen Piano Hammer Company announces</U><br>   <U>the New Weickert felt limited edition piano hammer</U>.</FONT><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=3> <br>         Exclusively produced in America by the Ronsen Hammer Co.<br> <br>  <B>The Wurzen felt company of Germany has just reintroduced the legendary Weickert felt. This felt was prized by hammer piano makers for its resilience & tonal versatility.<br>    Weickert felt was in use by many famous makers for nearly 90 years before WW-II forced the plant to be shut down. All old N.Y. Steinways as well as many other American and European companies used this felt. <br>  When the Berlin Wall came down, the Jack Brand family of Canada purchased the facility and in 1992 began felt production with all the original equipment and felt making formulas still intact! Wurzen makes a host of piano felts for the industry and its products are marketed and used worldwide.<br> <br>   Now the Famous Weickert felt piano hammer has been recreated. It is a dense,springy felt that provides a rich palette of tonal coloration to the musician and technician.<br>   <U>Ronsen-made Weickert felt hammers</U> elicit enormous sustain and tonal clarity from the very first moment - and these attributes are present without pre-needling. A simple probing of these hammers with a single #6 needle reveals a wonderful dense feel, and the needles go all the way in with a beautiful feel of velvety compliance.<br> <br>  The Weikert-style felt by Wurzen utilizes a special proprietary blend of wools as did the original formulas.<br> The reduction of protocols known to damage felt fibers in production, such as over-bleaching, pressing, ironing and sanding have all been reduced or in large part eliminated, leaving an absolutely beautiful organic hammer. The felt even smells alive!<br> The Weickert felt's density, elasticity and strength are left intact and are the vital and necessary ally of discriminating voicing technicians.<br>  Weickert felt, combined with the time-tested traditional hammer-making protocols of Ronsen's Ray Negron, has now produced one of the finest piano hammers ever available.<br> Available October 23 thd. Order now.<br> <br>   <U>Priced at $330.00 for 16 lb. felt<br> </U><br>   <U>Priced at $315 for the 14 lb. felt</U><br> <br>    <U>Introductory price of $299.00 </U><br>   <U>Boring extra</U><br>   For purchases, services, molding and other felt options call Dale Erwin, Ronsen's new West Coast supplier, at Erwin Piano Restoration at 209-577-8397 Pacific West coast time. For voicing and technical support, call either Dale or Ray Negron at Ronsen at 1-800-864-0233 East Coast time.</B></FONT> <br> <FONT size=3><br> </FONT><br> <FONT size=3><br> </FONT> <HR> <FONT size=3>McCain or Obama? 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