<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML xmlns:o = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office"><HEAD> <META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.5659" name=GENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Thomas~</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>This is an excellent question. I was also surprised there wasn't more response.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Besides the Morris Steinert "copies" (not quite!) of Steinways (including the Steinert, Hume, Jewett, and Steinertone brands), there are a number of other brands that also reflect that heavy-duty, full-featured, Steinway/Mason & Hamlin quality construction ethic that was prevalent among independent piano manufacturers/builders back in the vintage/"golden" era of piano building here in the U.S.(approximately 1890-1940). One of the pianos I personally own is a Steinert Model E, a 7' grand, from around 1918; it is a superior instrument, very similar to a Steinway Model B. No corners cut on this Steinert!</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>The list of pianos below is not all-inclusive of the all better quality grands, but it is a list of those I have have more or less direct experience with.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Conover is an excellent example of sort of a "Mason and Hamlin" copy (although as one technician remarked, sometimes it's difficult to ascertain who was copying whom.)</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Some other brands where I have been really impressed by the construction and design of some of their grands are:</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Baldwin (early grands made before about 1930, before Baldwin, like most other manufacturers, focused more on how to build the pianos quickly and cut costs; this applies to the other pianos below as well)</FONT></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Bush and Lane</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Bush and Gerts</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Cable (Cable actually controlled Mason & Hamlin for a time, wisely kept their hands off, but incorporated M&H features in Conover and Cable pianos)</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Cable-Conover</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>A.B. Chase (Some of these, also, were similar to Mason and Hamlins in construction/design)</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Chickering (Hit and miss, but if nothing else, a very labor-intensive piano, -ask any rebuilder. Chickering was a great innovator. Always trying something new.)</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Conover (already mentioned)</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Conway (a Kimball affiliate)</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Decker Bros.</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Decker & Sons.</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Jacob Doll</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Ellington</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Emerson</FONT></SPAN></DIV></FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Everett</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Estey</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>J&C Fischer</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Jesse French</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Ivers and Pond</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Hardman</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Hallet & Davis</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Henry F. Miller</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Hazelton</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Haines</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Haddorff</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Kurtzmann</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Krakauer</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Kimball (no I'm not kidding, they really did make some nice grands early on, also Concert Grands)</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Knabe (Made some really nice larger grands, and Concert Grands earlier in the 1900's)</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Kranich and Bach</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Lester (yes, before their "Betsy Ross spinet" eclipsed everything else, they made some serious grands. A friend of mine had a 7 footer that was really something.)</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Lindeman</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Ludwig</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>McPhail</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Marshall & Wendall</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Mathushek</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Smith & Barnes</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Strohber</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Geo. Steck</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Stieff</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Vose & Sons</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Weber</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Wissner (also similar in many ways to Mason & Hamlin)</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Wurlitzer (yes, I know, hard to believe, but they also made 7' and 9' grands that were fairly serious. Many of these have "cast iron pinblocks" though. (Sort of their version of a Mason-Hamlin screwstringer - yet another way to eliminate the wood pinblock.) See my earlier posts for a description of these, under the Wurlitzer Cast-Iron Pinblock thread in CAUT, September 2008, starting with <A href="https://www.moypiano.com/ptg/caut.php/2008-September/027720.html">https://www.moypiano.com/ptg/caut.php/2008-September/027720.html</A>)</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Most of the really high quality grands made by these companies are, of course, at least Mason & Hamlin "A" size, or over (5'8" or over) and are usually characterized by massive thick bent/laminated rims and cupola style plates, duplex scales, vertically laminated and capped bridges (but not always) and many came equipped with high quality German actions made by Schwander, Langer, or Renner, or else one of the high quality U.S. (German) action makers like Wessell, Nickel & Gross, Strauch Bros., or Staib-Abendschein. You will see things like individual or individually adjustable aliquot bars on Baldwin and Steinert, and Cable, if I remember correctly, as well as many others. Anyone who has restrung one of these pianos knows how much extra time it takes to restring a piano with individually adjustable aliquots; when cost and time cutting became paramount, these were one of the first "extras" to go.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Sometimes where the piano was built can give another clue to the quality of construction. Major piano rebuilding centers were New York, Boston, and Chicago. The really high quality pianos often came from the first two; manufacturers around the Chicago area were more into volume, but because of that also were able to have a "side line" of higher quality instruments (Cable, Conover, and Kimball come to mind.)</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>There are many other piano makers who, at one time or another, tried their hand at creating serious (around 6 ft or over) grands. Most of the established pianomakers had patterns at the Kelly or Wickham foundries at one time for a Concert Grand (9') plate. Many of these makers subsequently made their niche in smaller pianos, but the more serious instruments they made can still be discovered, under the most unlikely of names (such as Kimball or Wurlitzer). Because of this fact, and that the name often cannot be relied upon to tell you which pianos were quality or not, I usually end up looking more at design, workmanship and construction rather than brand. And I have been surprised, often, when I link those observations to the name on the fallboard.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Usually makers tended to consider their larger grands (around 6' and over) to be their more serious pianos, so usually you find the higher quality design and construction and the high quality actions in the larger grands. Smaller grands (under 5'8") were usually deemed to be for the less serious, and so lesser quality and workmanship in both design and construction was usually allocated to the smaller grands (but not always. There were also some excellent small grands made).</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Some excellent references/resources on some of the high quality brands are: </FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>(You can usually get these books from the piano supply houses like Schaff)</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>1926 <U>Presto Buyers Guide</U></FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Dolge, <U>Pianos and their Makers</U></FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Roell, <U>The Piano in America 1890-1940</U></FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Greenfield, <U>A History of Midwestern Piano Manufacturing</U></FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><U><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></U></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Hope this helps~</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Sincerely~</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Kendall Ross Bean</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=456001201-23102008> <DIV align=left> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=533361603-16112007>PianoFinders</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=533361603-16112007><A title=http://www.pianofinders.com href="http://www.pianofinders.com/">www.pianofinders.com</A></SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=533361603-16112007>e-mail: <A title=mailto:kenbean@pianofinders.com href="mailto:kenbean@pianofinders.com">kenbean@pianofinders.com</A></SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=533361603-16112007></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=533361603-16112007><EM>Connecting Pianos and People</EM></SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=456001201-23102008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>  </FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left> <HR tabIndex=-1> <FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> Thomas Martin [mailto:flibberti.gibbet@yahoo.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, October 22, 2008 10:38 AM<BR><B>To:</B> pianotech@ptg.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> Best Buys in the Used piano Market<BR></FONT><BR></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0> <TBODY> <TR> <TD vAlign=top> <DIV>Hello All,</DIV> <DIV>    </DIV> <DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I gleamed on this before but, there didn't seem to be much interest so I thought I'd persevere and make one more effort for input.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">Recently there has been a discussion about Conover pianos being comparable to Mason and Hamlins of similar size.  What about other brands?  Any input into other brands with similar designs to pianos with names recognized as high end that often go for maybe half the price because of the name on the fallboard and embossed in the plate?</SPAN></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thomas Martin</DIV></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></BODY></HTML>