<font color='navy' size='2' face='Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, Serif'><font size="2"><font face="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, Serif">Hey </font></font>G<font color="navy" face="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, Serif" size="2">uys<br>
Maybe somebody should ask them about there policy? Perhaps they were not thinking about the forum as being public<br>
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<div style="clear: both;"><b><font color="indigo" face="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, Serif" size="1"><font size="2">Dale S. Erwin<br>
</font><font size="2"><font size="1">www.Erwinspiano.com</font></font><br>
<font size="1">Sitka Soundboard Sales<br>
Ronsen Piano hammers<br>
209-577-8397</font><br>
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<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica; font-size: 10pt; color: black;">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Israel Stein <custos3@comcast.net><br>
To: pianotech@ptg.org<br>
Sent: Sat, Mar 26, 2011 10:04 pm<br>
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Steinway parts list<br>
<br>
<div id="AOLMsgPart_2_2916b5b1-699d-4076-ad12-672bdb4dfedf">
David,<br>
<br>
One needs to have an account with Steinway. I remember back eons ago
when I started my Steinway account, I had to submit references from
other members of the profession, as I had to do with other parts
suppliers. I don't know that they are interested in selling direct
to the public - and then having to deal with all the issues of
buyers who don't know what they are getting and what to do with it.
They have enough trouble with "technicians"... <br>
<br>
In our "business practices" classes at NBSS it was taught that you
mark up the parts - its part of your profit structure. Now, you can
do it or not in your own business - but please don't interfere with
the ability of other practitioners to do so by letting the wholesale
prices out into the public. If you did that with piano or car
prices, you'd have a whole lot of salespeople wishing you all the
harm in the world (and some of them perhaps even doing something
about it) - as their livelihood depends on markups... <br>
<br>
Israel Stein <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 11:59 AM, David Love wrote:
<blockquote type="cite">
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<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Maybe the better question is whether it really is
a wholesale price list. I’m not clear that one has to prove
anything to Steinway in order to buy things from them at
these prices, maybe I’m wrong. Other vendors clearly
differentiate between wholesale and retail prices on the
price lists they provide to resellers. The Steinway
pricelist makes no such distinction. </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"> </span></div>
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<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">David Love</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" target="_blank" href="http://www.davidlovepianos.com">www.davidlovepianos.com</a></span></div>
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<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"> </span></div>
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<div class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org">pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org">mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Israel
Stein<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, March 26, 2011 9:15 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> David Boyce<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [pianotech] Steinway parts list</span></div>
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<div class="MsoNormal"> </div>
<div class="MsoNormal">David and all,<br>
<br>
The technicalities of copyright law are not the issue here.
The issue here is commonly accepted business practice. It is
not in the best interest of business people who want to make a
profit on the sale of a product to publicize wholesale prices.
It puts them at a disadvantage when involved in price
negotiations with a prospective client. Someone who presents
himself as an "expert" on business practice and publishes a
book on the subject ought to know that. You simply don't send
out wholesale prices in a public medium - period. And anyone
who doesn't understand that ought to hang his head in shame.
And the more this person keeps arguing about it, the less
believable all his claims to alleged expertise in anything
become. <br>
<br>
Israel Stein <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 11:59 AM, David Boyce wrote: </div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="">Indeed. Copyright
is not something that you have to DO. It is something that
automatically IS. It is a right that exists as soon as you
produce an original work. <br>
<br>
What would be copyright about a price list, however, is the
TYPOGRAPHICAL ARRANGEMENT of the prices into a list. The
information or fact that a particular part costs a
particular price, is not copyright. There is no copyright in
facts or ideas; only in original WORKS produced using skill
and judgement.<br>
<br>
It is the same with the piano numbers books like Pierce, as
we discussed on here a couple of years ago. It would break
copyright law to scan and reproduce a page of Pierce. But it
would not breach copyright to use the piano numbers listed
in it, in some other context (however much the publishers
might care to suggest otherwise!).<br>
<br>
The information that a given flange costs a given price,
does not constitute a WORK. The typographical arrangement
of prices for all parts into a list, does constitute a WORK.
Therefore, copying and reproducing the list, or work, is a
breach of copyright. Distributing the information IN the
list, in some other form, is not.<br>
<br>
More pertinent here, though, is the aspect of business
confidentiality and business relationships.<br>
<br>
End of pedantic rant.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
<br>
David Boyce.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size: 11pt;">It
does not have to show specific copyright information. It is
copyrighted material by virtue of its having been written.
(See pg. 3 of the attached “Copyright Basics.”) Like it or
not, Steinway’s price list is copyrighted and the copyright
is owned by its creator or by the entity paying for its
creation; in this case Steinway & Sons. To reproduce it
or to distribute it without their permission is a violation
of copyright law. </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size: 11pt;"> </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Now,
Steinway may or may not care if you distribute their
document without checking with them first—I have no idea
what their position might be—but that is their decision to
make; not ours.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size: 11pt;"> </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">ddf</span><span style=""></span></div>
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