<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"> <html> <head> <meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1" http-equiv="Content-Type"> </head> <body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">Please, no lectures. I do understand the concept of mark up. I'm just not so sure you need a customer # to buy from them whether that was the original intention or not.David Love www.davidlovepianos.com (sent from bb)<hr/><div>From: Israel Stein <custos3@comcast.net> </div><div>Sender: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org </div><div>Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2011 22:04:42 -0700</div><div>To: <pianotech@ptg.org></div><div>ReplyTo: pianotech@ptg.org </div><div>Subject: Re: [pianotech] Steinway parts list</div><div> </div> David, One needs to have an account with Steinway. I remember back eons ago when I started my Steinway account, I had to submit references from other members of the profession, as I had to do with other parts suppliers. I don't know that they are interested in selling direct to the public - and then having to deal with all the issues of buyers who don't know what they are getting and what to do with it. They have enough trouble with "technicians"... In our "business practices" classes at NBSS it was taught that you mark up the parts - its part of your profit structure. Now, you can do it or not in your own business - but please don't interfere with the ability of other practitioners to do so by letting the wholesale prices out into the public. If you did that with piano or car prices, you'd have a whole lot of salespeople wishing you all the harm in the world (and some of them perhaps even doing something about it) - as their livelihood depends on markups... Israel Stein On 11:59 AM, David Love wrote: <blockquote cite="mid:%3C012101cbec39$b2a80d40$17f827c0$@net%3E" type="cite"> <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"> <meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 12 (filtered medium)"> <style></style> <div class="WordSection1"> Maybe the better question is whether it really is a wholesale price list.  I’m not clear that one has to prove anything to Steinway in order to buy things from them at these prices, maybe I’m wrong.  Other vendors clearly differentiate between wholesale and retail prices on the price lists they provide to resellers.  The Steinway pricelist makes no such distinction.     <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> <div> David Love<o:p></o:p> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.davidlovepianos.com">www.davidlovepianos.com</a><o:p></o:p> </div> <o:p> </o:p> <div> <div style="border-right: medium none; border-width: 1pt medium medium; border-style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;"> From: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org">pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</a> [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org">mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</a>] On Behalf Of Israel Stein Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2011 9:15 PM To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</a> Cc: David Boyce Subject: Re: [pianotech] Steinway parts list<o:p></o:p> </div> </div> <o:p> </o:p> David and all, The technicalities of copyright law are not the issue here. The issue here is commonly accepted  business practice. It is not in the best interest of business people who want to make a profit on the sale of a product to publicize wholesale prices. It puts them at a disadvantage when involved in price negotiations with a prospective client. Someone who presents himself as an "expert" on business practice and publishes a book on the subject ought to know that. You simply don't send out wholesale prices in a public medium - period. And anyone who doesn't understand that ought to hang his head in shame. And the more this person keeps arguing about it, the less believable all his claims to alleged expertise in anything become. Israel Stein On 11:59 AM, David Boyce wrote: <o:p></o:p> Indeed. Copyright is not something that you have to DO. It is something that automatically IS.  It is a right that exists as soon as you produce an original work. What would be copyright about a price list, however, is the TYPOGRAPHICAL ARRANGEMENT of the prices into a list. The information or fact that a particular part costs a particular price, is not copyright. There is no copyright in facts or ideas; only in original WORKS produced using skill and judgement. It is the same with the piano numbers books like Pierce, as we discussed on here a couple of years ago.  It would break copyright law to scan and reproduce a page of Pierce. But it would not breach copyright to use the piano numbers listed in it, in some other context (however much the publishers might care to suggest otherwise!). The information that a given flange costs a given price, does not constitute a WORK.  The typographical arrangement of prices for all parts into a list, does constitute a WORK. Therefore, copying and reproducing the list, or work, is a breach of copyright. Distributing the information IN the list, in some other form, is not. More pertinent here, though, is the aspect of business confidentiality and business relationships. End of pedantic rant. Best regards, David Boyce. <o:p></o:p> It does not have to show specific copyright information. It is copyrighted material by virtue of its having been written. (See pg. 3 of the attached “Copyright Basics.”) Like it or not, Steinway’s price list is copyrighted and the copyright is owned by its creator or by the entity paying for its creation; in this case Steinway & Sons. To reproduce it or to distribute it without their permission is a violation of copyright law. <o:p></o:p>  <o:p></o:p> Now, Steinway may or may not care if you distribute their document without checking with them first—I have no idea what their position might be—but that is their decision to make; not ours.<o:p></o:p>  <o:p></o:p> ddf<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> <o:p> </o:p> </div> </blockquote> </body> </html>