<font color='navy' size='2' face='Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, Serif'>We<font color="navy" face="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, Serif" size="2"> have a saying. Every client gets the technician they deserve. <br>  Not always true but many seem to want to drink the kool-aid willingly <div> <br> </div> <div> <br> </div> <div style="clear: both;"><b><font color="indigo" face="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, Serif" size="1"><font size="2">Dale S. Erwin<br> </font><font size="2"><font size="1">www.Erwinspiano.com</font></font><br> <font size="1">Sitka Soundboard Sales<br> Ronsen Piano hammers<br> 209-577-8397</font><br> </font><font size="1"><br> </font></b><br> <br> </div> <div> <br> </div> <br> <div style="font-family: arial,helvetica; font-size: 10pt; color: black;"> From: tnrwim@aol.com<br> <br> <div id="AOLMsgPart_2_d1bc0ea2-f7bb-4b1e-9890-9de7bf4785ec"> <font color="black" face="arial" size="2"> <div><br> </div> <div> </div> <div>I agree that we should be able to make a profit off the parts we sell to our customer, as I say in my book. However, there are some technicians who have opted not to do that<u>. <b>A customer who wants to go to the trouble of looking up wholesale price lists, will also go to the trouble of calling enough technicians until he finds one that does the work for the least amount of money.</b></u></div> <div><b><u> </u></b></div> <div>Wim</div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div><br> <br>  </div> <div style="font-family: arial,helvetica; color: black; font-size: 10pt;">-----Original Message-----<br> From: Israel Stein <<a href="mailto:custos3@comcast.net">custos3@comcast.net</a>><br> To: pianotech <<a href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</a>><br> Sent: Sat, Mar 26, 2011 7:05 pm<br> Subject: Re: [pianotech] Steinway parts list<br> <br> <div id="AOLMsgPart_1_33926b8f-4b0f-4407-a7c2-f333b5fe2cb4">David,<br> <br> One needs to have an account with Steinway. I remember back eons ago when I started my Steinway account, I had to submit references from other members of the profession, as I had to do with other parts suppliers. I don't know that they are interested in selling direct to the public - and then having to deal with all the issues of buyers who don't know what they are getting and what to do with it. They have enough trouble with "technicians"... <br> <br> In our "business practices" classes at NBSS it was taught that you mark up the parts - its part of your profit structure. Now, you can do it or not in your own business - but please don't interfere with the ability of other practitioners to do so by letting the wholesale prices out into the public. If you did that with piano or car prices, you'd have a whole lot of salespeople wishing you all the harm in the world (and some of them perhaps even doing something about it) - as their livelihood depends on markups... <br> <br> Israel Stein <br> <br> <br> <br> On 11:59 AM, David Love wrote: <blockquote type="cite"> <style>#AOLMsgPart_2_d1bc0ea2-f7bb-4b1e-9890-9de7bf4785ec td{color: black;} #AOLMsgPart_2_d1bc0ea2-f7bb-4b1e-9890-9de7bf4785ec #AOLMsgPart_1_33926b8f-4b0f-4407-a7c2-f333b5fe2cb4 td{color: black;} @font-face {font-family:Calibri; panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} @font-face {font-family:Tahoma; panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} @font-face {font-family:"Comic Sans MS"; panose-1:3 15 7 2 3 3 2 2 2 4;} #AOLMsgPart_2_d1bc0ea2-f7bb-4b1e-9890-9de7bf4785ec #AOLMsgPart_1_33926b8f-4b0f-4407-a7c2-f333b5fe2cb4 p.MsoNormal,#AOLMsgPart_2_d1bc0ea2-f7bb-4b1e-9890-9de7bf4785ec #AOLMsgPart_1_33926b8f-4b0f-4407-a7c2-f333b5fe2cb4 li.MsoNormal,#AOLMsgPart_2_d1bc0ea2-f7bb-4b1e-9890-9de7bf4785ec #AOLMsgPart_1_33926b8f-4b0f-4407-a7c2-f333b5fe2cb4 div.MsoNormal {margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"; color:black;} #AOLMsgPart_2_d1bc0ea2-f7bb-4b1e-9890-9de7bf4785ec #AOLMsgPart_1_33926b8f-4b0f-4407-a7c2-f333b5fe2cb4 a:link,#AOLMsgPart_2_d1bc0ea2-f7bb-4b1e-9890-9de7bf4785ec #AOLMsgPart_1_33926b8f-4b0f-4407-a7c2-f333b5fe2cb4 span.MsoHyperlink {mso-style-priority:99; color:blue; text-decoration:underline;} #AOLMsgPart_2_d1bc0ea2-f7bb-4b1e-9890-9de7bf4785ec #AOLMsgPart_1_33926b8f-4b0f-4407-a7c2-f333b5fe2cb4 a:visited,#AOLMsgPart_2_d1bc0ea2-f7bb-4b1e-9890-9de7bf4785ec #AOLMsgPart_1_33926b8f-4b0f-4407-a7c2-f333b5fe2cb4 span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {mso-style-priority:99; color:purple; text-decoration:underline;} #AOLMsgPart_2_d1bc0ea2-f7bb-4b1e-9890-9de7bf4785ec #AOLMsgPart_1_33926b8f-4b0f-4407-a7c2-f333b5fe2cb4 span.EmailStyle17 {mso-style-type:personal-reply; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D;} #AOLMsgPart_2_d1bc0ea2-f7bb-4b1e-9890-9de7bf4785ec #AOLMsgPart_1_33926b8f-4b0f-4407-a7c2-f333b5fe2cb4 .MsoChpDefault {mso-style-type:export-only; font-size:10.0pt;} @page WordSection1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;} #AOLMsgPart_2_d1bc0ea2-f7bb-4b1e-9890-9de7bf4785ec #AOLMsgPart_1_33926b8f-4b0f-4407-a7c2-f333b5fe2cb4 div.WordSection1 {page:WordSection1;} </style> <div class="WordSection1"> <div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Maybe the better question is whether it really is a wholesale price list.  I’m not clear that one has to prove anything to Steinway in order to buy things from them at these prices, maybe I’m wrong.  Other vendors clearly differentiate between wholesale and retail prices on the price lists they provide to resellers.  The Steinway pricelist makes no such distinction.     </span></div> <div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"> </span></div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">David Love</span></div> <div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" target="_blank" href="http://www.davidlovepianos.com/">www.davidlovepianos.com</a></span></div> </div> <div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"> </span></div> <div> <div style="border-width: 1pt medium medium; border-style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;"> <div class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org">pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</a> [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org">mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Israel Stein<br> <b>Sent:</b> Saturday, March 26, 2011 9:15 PM<br> <b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</a><br> <b>Cc:</b> David Boyce<br> <b>Subject:</b> Re: [pianotech] Steinway parts list</span></div> </div> </div> <div class="MsoNormal"> </div> <div class="MsoNormal">David and all,<br> <br> The technicalities of copyright law are not the issue here. The issue here is commonly accepted  business practice. It is not in the best interest of business people who want to make a profit on the sale of a product to publicize wholesale prices. It puts them at a disadvantage when involved in price negotiations with a prospective client. Someone who presents himself as an "expert" on business practice and publishes a book on the subject ought to know that. You simply don't send out wholesale prices in a public medium - period. And anyone who doesn't understand that ought to hang his head in shame. And the more this person keeps arguing about it, the less believable all his claims to alleged expertise in anything become. <br> <br> Israel Stein <br> <br> <br> <br> On 11:59 AM, David Boyce wrote: </div> <div class="MsoNormal"><span style="">Indeed. Copyright is not something that you have to DO. It is something that automatically IS.  It is a right that exists as soon as you produce an original work. <br> <br> What would be copyright about a price list, however, is the TYPOGRAPHICAL ARRANGEMENT of the prices into a list. The information or fact that a particular part costs a particular price, is not copyright. There is no copyright in facts or ideas; only in original WORKS produced using skill and judgement.<br> <br> It is the same with the piano numbers books like Pierce, as we discussed on here a couple of years ago.  It would break copyright law to scan and reproduce a page of Pierce. But it would not breach copyright to use the piano numbers listed in it, in some other context (however much the publishers might care to suggest otherwise!).<br> <br> The information that a given flange costs a given price, does not constitute a WORK.  The typographical arrangement of prices for all parts into a list, does constitute a WORK. Therefore, copying and reproducing the list, or work, is a breach of copyright. Distributing the information IN the list, in some other form, is not.<br> <br> More pertinent here, though, is the aspect of business confidentiality and business relationships.<br> <br> End of pedantic rant.<br> <br> Best regards,<br> <br> David Boyce.<br> <br> <br> <br> </span></div> <div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">It does not have to show specific copyright information. It is copyrighted material by virtue of its having been written. (See pg. 3 of the attached “Copyright Basics.”) Like it or not, Steinway’s price list is copyrighted and the copyright is owned by its creator or by the entity paying for its creation; in this case Steinway & Sons. To reproduce it or to distribute it without their permission is a violation of copyright law. </span></div> <div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"> </span></div> <div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Now, Steinway may or may not care if you distribute their document without checking with them first—I have no idea what their position might be—but that is their decision to make; not ours.</span></div> <div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"> </span></div> <div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">ddf</span><span style=""></span></div> <div class="MsoNormal"> </div> <div class="MsoNormal"> </div> </div> </blockquote><br> </div> </div> </font> </div>  </div> </font></font>