<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40" xmlns:v = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m = "http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml"><HEAD> <META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> <TITLE>Message</TITLE> <META name=GENERATOR content="MSHTML 8.00.6001.19088"> <STYLE>@font-face { font-family: Helvetica; } @font-face { font-family: Helvetica; } @font-face { font-family: Calibri; } @font-face { font-family: Tahoma; } @font-face { font-family: Georgia; } @page WordSection1 {size: 8.5in 11.0in; margin: 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in; } P.MsoNormal { MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman","serif"; FONT-SIZE: 12pt } LI.MsoNormal { MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman","serif"; FONT-SIZE: 12pt } DIV.MsoNormal { MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman","serif"; FONT-SIZE: 12pt } TT { FONT-FAMILY: "Courier New"; mso-style-priority: 99 } P.MsoAcetate { FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman","serif"; MARGIN-LEFT: 0in; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; mso-style-priority: 99; mso-style-link: "Balloon Text Char"; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto } LI.MsoAcetate { FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman","serif"; MARGIN-LEFT: 0in; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; mso-style-priority: 99; mso-style-link: "Balloon Text Char"; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto } DIV.MsoAcetate { FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman","serif"; MARGIN-LEFT: 0in; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; mso-style-priority: 99; mso-style-link: "Balloon Text Char"; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto } SPAN.BalloonTextChar { FONT-FAMILY: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; mso-style-priority: 99; mso-style-link: "Balloon Text"; mso-style-name: "Balloon Text Char" } P.msochpdefault { FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman","serif"; MARGIN-LEFT: 0in; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-style-name: msochpdefault } LI.msochpdefault { FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman","serif"; MARGIN-LEFT: 0in; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-style-name: msochpdefault } DIV.msochpdefault { FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman","serif"; MARGIN-LEFT: 0in; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-style-name: msochpdefault } SPAN.balloontextchar0 { mso-style-name: balloontextchar } SPAN.emailstyle19 { mso-style-name: emailstyle19 } SPAN.EmailStyle23 { COLOR: black; mso-style-type: personal } SPAN.EmailStyle24 { COLOR: black; mso-style-type: personal-reply } .msochpdefault { FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-style-type: export-only } DIV.WordSection1 { page: WordSection1 } </STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY lang=EN-US link=#000000 vLink=#000000> <DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN class=703341401-02072011>Hello Mr. Truitt,</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN class=703341401-02072011></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN class=703341401-02072011>I think you are equating quantity with quality both in the statistics on number of posts and on the larger audience here on pianotech. I suggested moving it to ptg-l because that is what that list is for- discussion of PTG policies and procedures. That list is limited to members who will have opportunity to change things at Council. Discussing it here is contrary to the stated purpose of this list which should be about piano technology. You are free to disagree but if you want to implement changes in PTG, I suggest that you follow the policies and procedures that have been developed by the membership for implementing those changes. You may get a lot of "attaboy" and "me too" here but unless those folks follow up with their delegates to Council, this is as far as you will get. </SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN class=703341401-02072011></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN class=703341401-02072011>I know I'm in the minority here, it's fine, been there before. I' started on the list before it was even a list and was still on a bulletin board. I've seen a lot of people come and go. I've didn't post much when I was on the Board because I was reading the list from the archives and it was a pain. So, I know what it feels like to be shut out from the list by software I could not deal with. </SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN class=703341401-02072011></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN class=703341401-02072011>Pianotech as a community will exist no matter what the software is in vogue at the time. People will come and go, things will change and some won't bother to adapt. But if it's truly a valuable community, which I believe it is, it will prosper no matter what inconveniences pop up. If you want to keep this list stasis indefinitely all that is needed is a group of volunteers to deal with administrations issues and a request for action to the board. But be careful what you ask for, it's been relatively easy so far but then you would be getting into real work. Work that Andy Rudoff, Ron Berry, Phil Bondi, Kent Swafford, Dave Porritt, Brian Lawson, John Baird and others have done on their own time for years without complaining. </SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN class=703341401-02072011></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN class=703341401-02072011>You are putting the blame for the loss of community on the difficulty of using the Higher Logic software. Just consider for a moment that the blame may equally lie on the lack of substantial piano related topics on this list. People will go where the content is, that's human nature. There have been some decent discussions on the HL site and I hope to see more. And any of you can go there and review them whenever you want. Or you can stay here and do the work necessary to maintain this list. Or something else can happen. But this community won't die because of a software issue. It will only die if it becomes irrelevant to the people involved.</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN class=703341401-02072011></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN class=703341401-02072011>Mr. Truitt, whether that happens would be up to you and the other members of this community, no one or thing else.</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN class=703341401-02072011></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN class=703341401-02072011>Dale</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN class=703341401-02072011>PS- I didn't respond to your post earlier because I wanted to think about it before I replied, sorry it wasn't on your timetable.</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px" dir=ltr> <DIV></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr lang=en-us class=OutlookMessageHeader align=left><FONT size=2 face=Tahoma>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Encore Pianos<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, July 01, 2011 5:07 PM<BR><B>To:</B> pianotech@ptg.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [pianotech] Stuff Which Should Really Be on PTG-L(OT)<BR><BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV class=WordSection1> <P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Hi Dale:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P> <P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P> <P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">If I want to be heard by the most people, the pianotech list is the place to go.  And judging by the flood of discussion, most people are quite content to do it here for now.  <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P> <P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P> <P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">I must admit that, other than reiterating your point that this discussion should be on PTG-L, you have chosen not to respond to my points and questions in my message sent this morning.  I am disappointed.  I had hoped for more of a dialog, because the dialog, regardless of who is “right”, educates us and moves us toward a consensus that belongs to all of us. I don’t own the truth or all the facts, nor do any of us.  Which is why the fullest participation by the most people is the best way to move towards a consensus as to what works and we can see what most of us want.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P> <P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P> <P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">I am interested in the best solution, even as I have a strong point of view. I don’t have to be right, which means I can be persuaded if you are armed with better facts and stronger arguments.   In the best world, that goes both ways.  And we can do all of this with a smile on our face and avoid getting into personalities.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P> <P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P> <P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Respectfully yours, <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P> <P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P> <P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Will Truitt      <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P> <P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Georgia','serif'; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P> <BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in"> <DIV> <P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">-----Original Message-----<BR>From: Encore Pianos <encorepianos@metrocast.net><BR>To: pianotech@ptg.org<BR>Sent: Fri, Jul 1, 2011 3:22 am<BR>Subject: Re: [pianotech] Stuff Which Should Really Be on PTG-L<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P> <DIV id=AOLMsgPart_2_a1e4169b-1326-40b0-a6af-8806b70f9070> <DIV> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Hi Dale:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">With respect, I think that the discussion is taking place exactly where it should – where the largest number of participants are going to read  it and respond to it.  Given the huge number of posts on the topic of the new forum in the past few days, clearly this is a topic of importance to many.  If it were on PTG-L, likely far fewer people would be aware of it.  For myself, I don’t make a point of frequenting PTG-L and probably would miss a good deal of discussion there.  I doubt that I am the only one whose reading habits are like that. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I simply do not understand what you mean when you say participation in this listserve are down because fewer posts are on topic or piano related?  Keeping posts on topic has always been a problem with the old format, yet many of those strings of posts ran incredible lengths and garnered many participants.  Excepting the large response generated in the last few days discussing the forum’s future and shape, the number of posts period had dropped dramatically once the new forum was implemented, even when you combine the new and old formats.  Some statistics showing the number of posts, taken from the archives that demonstrate the pattern of which I speak:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">January 2011 – 1872<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">February – 1480<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">March – 1139<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">April – 345<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">May – 235<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Even taking into account the normal ups and downs of  participation, it seems clear that the implementation of the new format hugely dampened participation – from March to April, the drop was 70 percent.  In March, there was a huge amount of discussion, questions, and complaints on the new forum that swelled those numbers.  May’s numbers were a mere 12.5% of January’s.  If you were to read all of the posts on this topic in the last few days, it is hard to conclude anything but that there is broad dissatisfaction with the new format.  Yes, there have been defenders who have written in, but they are few by comparison.  So I don’t believe that your argument holds water.  <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">The workaround to keep the listserve going for a while would be good, while PTG sorts this thing out.  I think we should not be putting any more time and money into the migration into the new format until the direction we will take is clearly established.  Many of us are for cutting our losses and dumping the new format.  But that does not mean that we are simply against any change.  I recognize and accept the problems that the old list has had and will continue to have.  One solution in the short term would be to pay someone to do the housekeeping of the old listserve, since we are paying out money each month for the new format in administrative and other costs.  Your point about the very hard work of volunteers is well made, but that said doesn’t make the Higher Logic program a good one, and does not change the fact that it is so unsuccessful in attracting or holding participants that it has greatly shrunken the use of the Forum by PTG members.  My interest is in keeping the Pianotech Forum vital and healthy, which it is not presently.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I am all for finding a really good e-mail program that will meet all of our needs and be widely accepted and used.  From what I know about the Higher Logic program, it is used by other groups and has been around for a while.  So it seems telling that it remains very flawed and buggy, and the interface is not likely to morph into something that listserve readers are going to like and want to use anytime soon.  So, let’s move on to something better, after taking the time to do the research and testing to emerge with something that most of us will like and want to use.  If that new program is not something that can be integrated with the other new software, so be it.  It is more important to keep the Forum alive.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Will Truitt<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>