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<DIV><SPAN class=531293615-01072011><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial>Dale,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=531293615-01072011><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=531293615-01072011><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial>When I
said get involved here's what I meant. If you want to effect change in the
organization you have to do "politics". It's nobody's "gift of service" in my
opinion. It's a dirty job with no pay, more than your fair share of abuse and
absolutely minimal gratitude for the time spent. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=531293615-01072011><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial>As to
whether it should be here or on PTG-L: ptg-l was set up to discuss these issues
in order to keep the pianotech list for piano technology. My suggestion would be
that if you want to be heard ptg-l is the place to go but it's your
choice.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=531293615-01072011><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=531293615-01072011><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial>Thanks
for all you do for PTG,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=531293615-01072011><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial>Dale</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=531293615-01072011>
<DIV align=left><FONT size=2>Dale Probst RPT</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT size=2>Registered Piano Technician</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT size=2>Ward & Probst, Inc.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT size=2><A
href="http://www.wardprobst.com/">www.wardprobst.com</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT size=2><A
href="mailto:dale@wardprobst.com">dale@wardprobst.com</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=531293615-01072011><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px" dir=ltr>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr lang=en-us class=OutlookMessageHeader align=left><FONT size=2
face=Tahoma>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>
pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] <B>On Behalf Of
</B>Dale Erwin<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, July 01, 2011 9:42 AM<BR><B>To:</B>
pianotech@ptg.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [pianotech] Stuff Which Should Really
Be on PTG-L<BR><BR></FONT></DIV><FONT color=navy size=2
face="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, Serif">Wil<FONT color=navy size=2
face="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, Serif">l<BR> Thanks for leading
the charge on this. Either we have a voice, rights and privileges for being
members or we don't. So If we have a voice, we speak. Compromise is the way to
preserve relationship. We each give a little. <BR> <BR> Dale I've
been at this 40 years. I don't do politics,.. I teach and exhibit, given
tuning test, chapter pres. etc. etc.<BR> I have also as amny on
this list, contributed voluntarily to the educational knowledge base on this
list hundreds/thousands of man hours of time as have SO many . To say to many
of us to.." get involved" is not seeing the rest of us as you see your
self. We are involved and engaged. Our voices are asking to be heard on two
issues.<BR> Many of us have given up as countless hours doing other jobs
in the organization as those men that you mention. It doesn't make us
ungrateful for those that do the political job. That's there gift of
service.<BR><BR> Dels point and mine is that there is only so much I am
going to give, or any family man is going to give up without some
compensation, including you and the other guys that serve. Its reality.
<BR> Thanks for what you do!<BR>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="CLEAR: both"><FONT size=1><B><FONT color=indigo
face="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, Serif">Dale S.
Erwin<BR>www.Erwinspiano.com<BR>209-577-8397</FONT></B></FONT><FONT
size=1><B><BR>209-985-0990</B><BR><SPAN
style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN><B><I><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></I></B></FONT><FONT color=navy
size=1 face="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, Serif"><I><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></I></FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-STYLE: italic"><B><FONT size=1>Ronsen hammers/prep<BR>Sitka Sound
boards<BR>Belly packages</FONT></B></SPAN><TT><TT><BR><BR><FONT
size=2> Poor decisions are rarely made right by a greater commitment to
them.</FONT> <BR> <FONT size=2>"<B>David
Love</B>"</FONT></TT></TT><BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: arial,helvetica; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">-----Original
Message-----<BR>From: Encore Pianos <encorepianos@metrocast.net><BR>To:
pianotech@ptg.org<BR>Sent: Fri, Jul 1, 2011 3:22 am<BR>Subject: Re:
[pianotech] Stuff Which Should Really Be on PTG-L<BR><BR>
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<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Hi Dale:</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">With respect, I think that the
discussion is taking place exactly where it should – where the largest number
of participants are going to read it and respond to it. Given the
huge number of posts on the topic of the new forum in the past few days,
clearly this is a topic of importance to many. If it were on PTG-L,
likely far fewer people would be aware of it. For myself, I don’t make a
point of frequenting PTG-L and probably would miss a good deal of discussion
there. I doubt that I am the only one whose reading habits are like
that. </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">I simply do not understand
what you mean when you say participation in this listserve are down because
fewer posts are on topic or piano related? Keeping posts on topic has
always been a problem with the old format, yet many of those strings of posts
ran incredible lengths and garnered many participants. Excepting the
large response generated in the last few days discussing the forum’s future
and shape, the number of posts period had dropped dramatically once the new
forum was implemented, even when you combine the new and old formats.
Some statistics showing the number of posts, taken from the archives that
demonstrate the pattern of which I speak:</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">January 2011 –
1872</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">February – 1480</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">March – 1139</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">April – 345</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">May – 235</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Even taking into account the
normal ups and downs of participation, it seems clear that the
implementation of the new format hugely dampened participation – from March to
April, the drop was 70 percent. In March, there was a huge amount of
discussion, questions, and complaints on the new forum that swelled those
numbers. May’s numbers were a mere 12.5% of January’s. If you were
to read all of the posts on this topic in the last few days, it is hard to
conclude anything but that there is broad dissatisfaction with the new
format. Yes, there have been defenders who have written in, but they are
few by comparison. So I don’t believe that your argument holds
water. </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">The workaround to keep the
listserve going for a while would be good, while PTG sorts this thing
out. I think we should not be putting any more time and money into the
migration into the new format until the direction we will take is clearly
established. Many of us are for cutting our losses and dumping the new
format. But that does not mean that we are simply against any
change. I recognize and accept the problems that the old list has had
and will continue to have. One solution in the short term would be to
pay someone to do the housekeeping of the old listserve, since we are paying
out money each month for the new format in administrative and other
costs. Your point about the very hard work of volunteers is well made,
but that said doesn’t make the Higher Logic program a good one, and does not
change the fact that it is so unsuccessful in attracting or holding
participants that it has greatly shrunken the use of the Forum by PTG
members. My interest is in keeping the Pianotech Forum vital and
healthy, which it is not presently.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">I am all for finding a really
good e-mail program that will meet all of our needs and be widely accepted and
used. From what I know about the Higher Logic program, it is used by
other groups and has been around for a while. So it seems telling that
it remains very flawed and buggy, and the interface is not likely to morph
into something that listserve readers are going to like and want to use
anytime soon. So, let’s move on to something better, after taking the
time to do the research and testing to emerge with something that most of us
will like and want to use. If that new program is not something that can
be integrated with the other new software, so be it. It is more
important to keep the Forum alive.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Will Truitt</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<DIV class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A
href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org">pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</A> [<A
href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org?">mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</A>]
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Dale Probst<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, July 01, 2011 12:02
AM<BR><B>To:</B> <A
href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</A><BR><B>Subject:</B>
[pianotech] Stuff Which Should Really Be on PTG-L</SPAN></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Hi
Alan et al,</SPAN></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Whoever
told you $10-$50 would do it was misinformed. I think dues would have to
double for the convention to be free. With a large increase we would
lose a significant percentage of the membership that makes a moving
target that is hard to calculate but that's my best guess. Doubling dues
won't have much effect if half the membership resigns</SPAN></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I've
been reading a lot of posts and have a few comments which I'm sure won't
be received in the spirit they are intended but here they are. First,
participation in this listserve is down because fewer posts are on topic or
piano related. There have been more piano related posts on the new site that's
why some of us have spent more time there. Second, I believe some workaround
compromise will come about to keep the lists going longer. My question is how
many of the people who have complained are ready to serve as admins or do
other thankless jobs to keep these antiquated listserves going? Don't bother
telling me how much you dislike the Higher Logic site and that these
listserves are perfect. I heard complaints for years about these listserves
and their jumbled digests, archives and other issues when I was on
the Board. </SPAN></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">On the
topic of instructor reimbursements- it's simple math. With registration
prices lower this year, less could be reimbursed to instructors because
the budget of PTG depends upon income from the convention to pay bills.
I understand that instructors put a lot of time into presentations, I've
taught before. Board members put in a lot of time also, as do examiners and
other volunteer members. Del hit it right on the head when he said PTG was a
volunteer organization that was built by a generous spirit of volunteerism. I
can tell you first hand it still is and we are still building. How to get
from a totally volunteer organization to one where some folks get
reimbursed has been a problem that we have yet to solve. I do know that it
will never be amenable to everyone, no matter what we do.</SPAN></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">As to
"the absence of some of our finest independent instructors" at the annual PTG
convention- these will be the first classes I've have had a chance to attend
to since 1997 and I'm looking forward to them. There are new classes and new
faces and that is not altogether a bad thing. Do I wish some of my old friends
would be there? You bet! I also wish that my friends could find some value in
attending these new classes whether they were teaching or not. I've been at
this 30 years and I've yet to find a class that didn't make me a better tech
for attending. I'll grant that some do more of that than others but the worst
I ever attended was pretty darn good. </SPAN></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I wish
you all the best and I hope to see some of you in KC. </SPAN></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Dale</SPAN></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">PS
Please keep in mind that these folks some of you are criticizing so vehemently
are volunteers you elected who take time away from their families and
work to serve. In my experience Board service at the RVP level takes a month
out of your year and it don't get better if you move up to the Executive
Committee. If you really feel motivated to make changes, sign up and get
involved. I can tell you from personal experience, one motivated person
can make a difference.</SPAN></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Dale Probst
RPT</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Registered Piano
Technician</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Ward & Probst,
Inc.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><A
href="http://www.wardprobst.com/"
target=_blank>www.wardprobst.com</A></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><A
href="mailto:dale@wardprobst.com">dale@wardprobst.com</A></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal> </DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in">
<DIV style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">-----Original
Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> <A
href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org">pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</A> [<A
href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org?">mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</A>]
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Alan Eder<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, June 30, 2011 6:01
PM<BR><B>To:</B> <A
href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</A><BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[pianotech] teaching money,(was Irritated )</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Hi
Mark, </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I
am deeply concerned about the absence of some of our finest independent
instructors at this year's national convention.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: blue 1.5pt solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; PADDING-LEFT: 2pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0in">
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I
would also rather pay higher dues and/or registration than to see the
quality of instruction diminish, but I'm also sensitive to the needs of
beginning technicians who may truly have trouble affording the cost of
attending. </SPAN></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I
recently heard that someone (named Carl Lieberman?) calculated that with a
modest increase in dues (was it $50? or $10? Carl?), convention registration
could be free to all comers. Sure, everyone would still have to get
themselves there and pay for a room (hey, you have to eat whether you are at
home or on the road), but this would enormously increase the incentive to
attend conventions ('cause it's already paid for--take it, or leave it).
This approach, coupled with the kind of respect, both verbal and
monetary, exemplified by some of our better one-day seminars and regional
conventions, could enable the nationals to not only return to their former
glory, but to surpass it by showing that we truly value excellence in
instruction and seek to promote our own professionalism.</SPAN></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I
appreciate your involvement in this issue and thank you for taking the time
to hear me out.</SPAN></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Alan
Eder</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN> </DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></DIV><!-- end of AOLMsgPart_2_a1e4169b-1326-40b0-a6af-8806b70f9070 --></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML>