<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"> <head> <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> <meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 12 (filtered medium)"> <title>Message</title> <style>  </style> </head> <body lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple"> <div class="Section1"> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D">Alan & All,<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D">About 3 years ago my report to Council stated that for PTG to be a dues based operation the dues would have to be around $350.  Since then the cost of doing everything has gone up.  In today’s dollars they would probably need to be $400-$450.<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D">Personally I think that is where we should be (and it  would still be a bargin) but as Dale Probst has stated, we do not know what the fall-out would be in terms of losing members.<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D">See you in KC!<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <div> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D">Jim Coleman, Jr   RPT<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D">  Staff Piano Technician<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D">     University of Tennessee<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D">     Knoxville, TN<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D"> (865) 748-0998<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D">(602) 989-0005<o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <div> <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"> <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Dale Probst<br> <b>Sent:</b> Friday, July 01, 2011 12:04 PM<br> <b>To:</b> pianotech@ptg.org<br> <b>Subject:</b> Re: [pianotech] Right Here, Right Now (was Stuff Which Should Really Be on PTG-L)(OT)<o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> </div> <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> <div> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:blue">Alan & Will,</span><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:blue">See my post to Dale on what venue is appropriate to talk about this. </span><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:blue">I'm proud we're a volunteer organization built by the membership. I have seen issues with the "status quo". and I've tried to work on them to the best of my ability. I'm not sure that PTG will be in a position to pay instructors any time soon but we don't pay chapter officers or examiners or any number of other deserving people either. When I was an institute director I learned a lot about what instructors would like to have. Sometimes you can do it and sometimes you can't, depends on a lot of factors beyond your control.  Most professional organizations our size don't pay instructors or writers for their contributions at all. </span><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:blue">As to whether you get more excellent instruction by paying instructors, that hasn't always been my experience. I'm not sure we would get better officers if we paid them either. Would we be a more professional organization if we did so? I don't know the answer to that either. I do think that we would be a much smaller organization with more limited resources and that would tend to decrease our visibility in the marketplace. I've always enjoyed the diversity in our membership and I'd hate to see that diminish. I think we'd miss out on a lot of guys getting into the business and that by the time they could afford membership they might just believe that they could do with out. The Board of Directors has spent a lot of volunteer time trying to find answers to these and other questions.</span><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:blue">Like I said before how much to increase dues is a moving target depending upon how many would quit over the price increase. I think you would have to double them at a minimum.</span><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:blue">Best,</span><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:blue">Dale</span><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:blue">Dale Probst RPT<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:blue">Registered Piano Technician<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:blue">Ward & Probst, Inc.<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:blue"><a href="http://www.wardprobst.com/">www.wardprobst.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:blue"><a href="mailto:dale@wardprobst.com">dale@wardprobst.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:blue"> <o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p> </div> <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">-----Original Message-----<br> <b>From:</b> pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Alan Eder<br> <b>Sent:</b> Friday, July 01, 2011 10:11 AM<br> <b>To:</b> pianotech@ptg.org<br> <b>Subject:</b> Re: [pianotech] Right Here, Right Now (was Stuff Which Should Really Be on PTG-L)</span><o:p></o:p></p> <div> <div id="AOLMsgPart_1_fcfe7ac8-c218-4adf-9014-5abd5ab765f0"> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:black">Dale, <o:p></o:p></span></p> <div> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:black">I, too believe that, "... one motivated person can make a difference," which is why I am chiming in on this topic, and where it will best reach an appropriate audience, right here on pianotech.<o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:black">I find it ironic that your takeaway from Del's eloquent and measured post was the one statement he made that could be (mis?)construed to be in support of the status quo.  What is your take on everything else he wrote?  <o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:black">Similarly, while I appreciate and am still absorbing your response to selected aspects of my post, I would be most interested to learn your views on the points I made about furthering our own professionalism as an organization, and placing a premium on excellence in instruction.  To my mind, these are two defining issues facing our Guild.<o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:black">Finally, I apologize if I have passed on an inaccurate calculation as to how much dues would have to be increased in order to make registration at national conventions gratis for members.  Please set me straight by providing the true amount we would have to notch it up to accomplish this intriguing goal.<o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:black">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Alan Eder<o:p></o:p></span></p> <div> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black">-----Original Message-----<br> From: Dale Probst <dale@wardprobst.com><br> To: pianotech <pianotech@ptg.org><br> Sent: Thu, Jun 30, 2011 5:02 pm<br> Subject: [pianotech] Stuff Which Should Really Be on PTG-L<o:p></o:p></span></p> <div id="AOLMsgPart_1_f12d7422-b3c4-4738-baa1-edd1b0282efa"> <div> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:blue">Hi Alan et al,</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family: "Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"; color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:blue">Whoever told you $10-$50 would do it was misinformed. I think dues would have to double for the convention to be free. With a  large increase we would lose a significant percentage of the membership that makes a moving target that is hard to calculate but that's my best guess. Doubling dues won't have much effect if half the membership resigns</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"; color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:blue">I've been reading a lot of posts and have a few comments which I'm sure won't be received in the spirit they are intended but here they are. First, participation in this listserve is down because fewer posts are on topic or piano related. There have been more piano related posts on the new site that's why some of us have spent more time there. Second, I believe some workaround compromise will come about to keep the lists going longer. My question is how many of the people who have complained are ready to serve as admins or do other thankless jobs to keep these antiquated listserves going? Don't bother telling me how much you dislike the Higher Logic site and that these listserves are perfect. I heard complaints for years about these listserves and their jumbled digests, archives and other issues when I was on the Board. </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"; color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"; color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:blue">On the topic of instructor reimbursements- it's simple math. With registration prices lower this year, less could be reimbursed to instructors because the budget of PTG depends upon income from the convention to pay bills.  I understand that instructors put a lot of time into presentations, I've taught before. Board members put in a lot of time also, as do examiners and other volunteer members. Del hit it right on the head when he said PTG was a volunteer organization that was built by a generous spirit of volunteerism. I can tell you first hand it still is and we are still building. How to get from a totally volunteer organization to one where some folks get reimbursed has been a problem that we have yet to solve. I do know that it will never be amenable to everyone, no matter what we do.</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"; color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:blue">As to "the absence of some of our finest independent instructors" at the annual PTG convention- these will be the first classes I've have had a chance to attend to since 1997 and I'm looking forward to them. There are new classes and new faces and that is not altogether a bad thing. Do I wish some of my old friends would be there? You bet! I also wish that my friends could find some value in attending these new classes whether they were teaching or not. I've been at this 30 years and I've yet to find a class that didn't make me a better tech for attending. I'll grant that some do more of that than others but the worst I ever attended was pretty darn good. </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"; color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:blue">I wish you all the best and I hope to see some of you in KC. </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"; color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:blue">Dale</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"; color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"; color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:blue">PS Please keep in mind that these folks some of you are criticizing so vehemently are volunteers you elected who take time away from their families and work to serve. In my experience Board service at the RVP level takes a month out of your year and it don't get better if you move up to the Executive Committee. If you really feel motivated to make changes, sign up and get involved. I can tell you from personal experience, one motivated person can make a difference.</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"; color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"; color:black">Dale Probst RPT<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"; color:black">Registered Piano Technician<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"; color:black">Ward & Probst, Inc.<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"; color:black"><a href="http://www.wardprobst.com/" target="_blank">www.wardprobst.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"; color:black"><a href="mailto:dale@wardprobst.com">dale@wardprobst.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"; color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"; color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"; color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">-----Original Message-----<br> <b>From:</b> <a href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org">pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</a> [<a href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org?">mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Alan Eder<br> <b>Sent:</b> Thursday, June 30, 2011 6:01 PM<br> <b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</a><br> <b>Subject:</b> Re: [pianotech] teaching money,(was Irritated )</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:black">Hi Mark, <o:p></o:p></span></p> <div> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:black">I am deeply concerned about the absence of some of our finest independent instructors at this year's national convention.<o:p></o:p></span></p> <div> <blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 2.0pt; margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"; color:black">I would also rather pay higher dues and/or registration than to see the quality of instruction diminish, but I'm also sensitive to the needs of beginning technicians who may truly have trouble affording the cost of attending. <o:p></o:p></span></p> </blockquote> </div> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:black">I recently heard that someone (named Carl Lieberman?) calculated that with a modest increase in dues (was it $50? or $10? Carl?), convention registration could be free to all comers.  Sure, everyone would still have to get themselves there and pay for a room (hey, you have to eat whether you are at home or on the road), but this would enormously increase the incentive to attend conventions ('cause it's already paid for--take it, or leave it).  This approach, coupled with the kind of respect, both verbal and monetary, exemplified by some of our better one-day seminars and regional conventions, could enable the nationals to not only return to their former glory, but to surpass it by showing that we truly value excellence in instruction and seek to promote our own professionalism.<o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:black">I appreciate your involvement in this issue and thank you for taking the time to hear me out.<o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Alan Eder<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> </div> </blockquote> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </blockquote> </div> </body> </html>