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<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN class=656435311-02072011>Hi
Will,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
class=656435311-02072011></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN class=656435311-02072011>I'm
going to try once more to explain. PTG-L is NOT limited to Council delegates it
is open to every member of PTG. It was set up for discussion of membership
issues such as dissatisfaction with Higher Logic, doubling dues, instructor
reimbursement, what ever. I realize that there are non members and former
members on the list and yes their concerns are important too. But the members
will decide what happens with the organization because they pay the freight with
their dues and volunteer contributions. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
class=656435311-02072011></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN class=656435311-02072011>Second
point- technicians will go where the content is- period. I'll concede that they
will can be dissuaded by the difficulties of using software. I'm no computer
whiz but I have had very few problems accessing the discussions on Higher Logic.
I do it from my home computer and it does what I need. Would I like to see
improvements? You bet and I've submitted my punch list to my RVP and Phil Bondi.
My point is very simple- if you want this list to continue you and all people
who agree with you need to submit technical posts to list and volunteer to
maintain it. We are using an old version of mailman and spam and virus
protection is a real problem. It requires admins to go through the grey lists
and forward posts that are held up by the anti spam/virus software we
use.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
class=656435311-02072011></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN class=656435311-02072011>Third
point- list access will change over time. As I said, I used to access it via a
bulletin board, then in real time and finally through the archives. As a sitting
officer on the Board, I was reading every list- PTG had 66 of them at the time.
The volume of off topic and me too posts on pianotech made it impractical
for me to continue in real time. If I had not adapted to a less than perfect
method of reading pianotech I would have lost out on the discussion. So I
adapted. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
class=656435311-02072011></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
class=656435311-02072011>Fourth, you can blame HL for the loss of community but
HL did not change anything on this list. It only gave those of us who needed
another way of participating an option. If you don't want to change over, don't.
Sign up to maintain this list and send all the posts you want here. I'm good
with that. Just don't blame the other site for reducing participation here.
Nothing has changed here. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
class=656435311-02072011></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN class=656435311-02072011>I hope
that explains my position adequately and apologize for my inability to
communicate better. I'm trying to get a rebuild out before I leave for KC and
have class presentations to polish. Not to mention that I'll be a delegate
for my chapter. That's why I'm participating here but I still believe we should
be on ptg-l where more delegates would see the discussion.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
class=656435311-02072011></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
class=656435311-02072011>Adios,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
class=656435311-02072011>DP</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN class=656435311-02072011>
<DIV align=left><FONT size=2>Dale Probst RPT</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT size=2>Registered Piano Technician</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT size=2>Ward & Probst, Inc.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT size=2><A
href="http://www.wardprobst.com/">www.wardprobst.com</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT size=2><A
href="mailto:dale@wardprobst.com">dale@wardprobst.com</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px" dir=ltr>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr lang=en-us class=OutlookMessageHeader align=left><FONT size=2
face=Tahoma>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>
pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] <B>On Behalf Of
</B>Encore Pianos<BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, July 02, 2011 5:45
AM<BR><B>To:</B> pianotech@ptg.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [pianotech] [OT]
Stuff Which Should Really Be on PTG-L<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=WordSection1>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Hi Dale:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">May I call you Dale?
Please call me Will. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">I wasn’t making any statement
comparing quantity and quality by sharing the statistics that I garnered from
the archives. I didn’t have time to reread 5000 messages in the time
period quoted and compile content lists piano and non-piano. Even
surveying the subject titles and doing that would not be accurate, as we both
know how the subject can change from one thing to another (both piano and non
piano related), yet the title remains the same. That has been a problem
of message discipline for years and will likely not change no matter what the
format for e-mail server.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">But my point about the decline
in participation still stands, I think. The reason for that is that the
statistics I quoted reflect both Pianotech Lists, the old and the new.
And the very significant drop coincides with the implementation of the new
forum software. Further, the overwhelming number of comments by List
participants in the last few days – where they are articulating their concerns
and feelings – support the contention that decline in participation is in
response to the inadequacies of the new system. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I
suggested moving it to ptg-l because that is what that list is for- discussion
of PTG policies and procedures. That list is limited to members who will
have opportunity to change things at Council. Discussing it here is contrary
to the stated purpose of this list which should be about piano
technology.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">On the one hand, I understand
your point about topic segregation and what the various lists are for.
In and of itself, that is not a bad thing and may be useful to help manage the
list topics better. I am not unsympathetic to that aspect of it.
But, like subject headings and message content, it is subject to the vagaries
of member self-discipline as compliance is voluntary. Some will bother
and some wont. That’s just the way it is.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">I find the second sentence
quoted above telling. You want me to have this discussion on
ptg-l. But ptg-l is limited to council delegates, as you state
here. Since I am not a council delegate, I cannot have this discussion
on ptg-l. But I cannot have it on Pianotech either, since that is for
piano related topics only. The logic of your argument then, is that
there is no forum for my voice. Nor, more tellingly, for the hundreds?of
messages in the last few days, no voice either, since most of them are likely
not council delegates. The net effect of our voluntary compliance with
your dictum is that we should swallow our widespread dissent and shut
up.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">I am troubled by some of your
characterizations about what software is in vogue at the time, and people
wanting to adapt. As if our complaints are based on mere personal
preference and we are too lazy to adapt to new ways of doing things.
When things change, we should make the effort to adapt. But I think you
are barking up the wrong tree. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">The key here is that the
Pianotech Forum is based entirely on voluntary participation and
compliance. If you want us to do things in a certain way – meaning those
of you who will effect changes related to this forum – then you have the task
of persuading us to do things in a new way, since I do not believe you want
the forum to be used by only 10 members instead of 1000. And certainly
one of the strongest measures of success would be how widely the Pianotech
Forum is used by members. That means that those encharged with the
responsibilities of finding and implementing new software should be
looking for something that the members will like and want to use. That’s
not an easy task, as you are going to have to second guess what we will
want to do. That said, some things will bring about a greater chance of
success. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">The interface is where it all
starts. Ideally, the software would be easy to use, consistent,
reliable, and not buggy. Good interface design allows you to get from
here to there in the fewest possible steps, when we are talking about the
basic functions that all of us are going to do most of the time. There
should be a consistent internal logic that makes usage seem easy and
intuitive. The more you have to use Help to navigate a program, the less
successful its design is. And the fewer your chances are for widespread
adoption by a membership that will have to be persuaded that it is worth
bothering.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">The Higher Logic program throws
up roadblocks at the most basic levels of functionality. It’s a damn
pain in the ass to use, it’s poorly designed, and has too many bugs –
particularly for a program that should be mature and stable by now.
And, acknowledge this or not, too many people have voted with their feet
and ended or greatly reduced their participation in the forum. By that
measure, it’s a failure. But don’t blame the victims.
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Yes, I am blaming the loss of
community on the difficulty of using the Higher Logic Software. If I
were only one voice, that would make my dissent insignificant. But,
change a few details, so have said the vast majority of respondents in the
last few days. We are merely reflecting a very real problem with bad
software, and we are complaining because we want a great forum that we fear
the new software in effect is taking away from us.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Dale, I appreciate you
taking the time to respond and hope this discussion can continue between you
and I, and others as well. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Most respectfully yours,
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Will<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] <B>On Behalf Of
</B>Dale Probst<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, July 01, 2011 9:40 PM<BR><B>To:</B>
pianotech@ptg.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [pianotech] [OT] Stuff Which Should
Really Be on PTG-L<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Hello
Mr. Truitt,</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I
think you are equating quantity with quality both in the statistics on number
of posts and on the larger audience here on pianotech. I suggested moving it
to ptg-l because that is what that list is for- discussion of PTG policies and
procedures. That list is limited to members who will have opportunity to
change things at Council. Discussing it here is contrary to the stated purpose
of this list which should be about piano technology. You are free to
disagree but if you want to implement changes in PTG, I suggest that you
follow the policies and procedures that have been developed by the membership
for implementing those changes. You may get a lot of "attaboy" and "me too"
here but unless those folks follow up with their delegates to Council, this is
as far as you will get. </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I know
I'm in the minority here, it's fine, been there before. I' started on the list
before it was even a list and was still on a bulletin board. I've seen a
lot of people come and go. I've didn't post much when I was on the Board
because I was reading the list from the archives and it was a pain. So, I know
what it feels like to be shut out from the list by software I could not deal
with. </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Pianotech
as a community will exist no matter what the software is in vogue at the time.
People will come and go, things will change and some won't bother to adapt.
But if it's truly a valuable community, which I believe it is, it will prosper
no matter what inconveniences pop up. If you want to keep this list
stasis indefinitely all that is needed is a group of volunteers to deal
with administrations issues and a request for action to the board. But be
careful what you ask for, it's been relatively easy so far but then you would
be getting into real work. Work that Andy Rudoff, Ron Berry, Phil Bondi, Kent
Swafford, Dave Porritt, Brian Lawson, John Baird and others have done on their
own time for years without complaining. </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">You
are putting the blame for the loss of community on the difficulty of using the
Higher Logic software. Just consider for a moment that the blame may equally
lie on the lack of substantial piano related topics on this list. People will
go where the content is, that's human nature. There have been some decent
discussions on the HL site and I hope to see more. And any of you can go there
and review them whenever you want. Or you can stay here and do the work
necessary to maintain this list. Or something else can happen. But this
community won't die because of a software issue. It will only die if it
becomes irrelevant to the people involved.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Mr.
Truitt, whether that happens would be up to you and the other members of
this community, no one or thing else.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Dale</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">PS- I
didn't respond to your post earlier because I wanted to think about it before
I replied, sorry it wasn't on your timetable.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in">
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Georgia','serif'; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
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