<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Any way to saw or file the end, so there is enough room to push it through?<div>Is there room for a Dremel?</div><div>A hacksaw blade with just some tape wrapped around it for a hand hold, wouldn't take much room.</div><div>John Ross</div><div>Windsor, Nova Scotia<br><div><div>On 2011-07-02, at 3:19 PM, Dale Probst wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div><span class="328281018-02072011"><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial">Hi
Dale,</font></span></div>
<div><span class="328281018-02072011"><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial"></font></span> </div>
<div><span class="328281018-02072011"><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial">Sorry,
here's the deal: hitch pin next to treble strut broke flush with plate on
second chip session. Drove the remnant through plate but there is insufficient
clearance between the bottom of the plate and the top of the soundboard for the
the remnant of the hitch pin to clear. I'd like to get that remnant out with out
pulling the plate if possible- piano is strung and chipped. And
ideas?</font></span></div><span class="328281018-02072011"><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial">
<div><br>DP</div>
</font><div><font size="2">Dale Probst RPT</font></div>
<div>
<div align="left"><font size="2">Registered Piano Technician</font></div>
<div align="left"><font size="2">Ward & Probst, Inc.</font></div>
<div align="left"><font size="2"><a href="http://www.wardprobst.com/">www.wardprobst.com</a></font></div>
<div align="left"><font size="2"><a href="mailto:dale@wardprobst.com">dale@wardprobst.com</a></font></div>
<div align="left"><font size="2"></font> </div></div>
<blockquote style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px" dir="ltr">
<div></div>
<div dir="ltr" lang="en-us" class="OutlookMessageHeader" align="left"><font size="2" face="Tahoma">-----Original Message-----<br><b>From:</b>
<a href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org">pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</a> [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] <b>On Behalf Of
</b>Dale Erwin<br><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, July 02, 2011 1:05 PM<br><b>To:</b>
<a href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> [pianotech] Dales hitch pin
clearance<br><br></font></div><font color="navy" size="2" face="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, Serif"><font color="navy" size="2" face="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, Serif">
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div style="CLEAR: both"><font size="1"><b><font color="indigo" face="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, Serif">Dale S.
Erwin<br><a href="http://www.Erwinspiano.com">www.Erwinspiano.com</a><br>209-577-8397</font></b></font><font size="1"><b><br>209-985-0990</b><br><span style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></span><span style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></span><b><i><span style="COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></span></i></b></font><font color="navy" size="1" face="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, Serif"><i><span style="COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></span></i></font><span style="FONT-STYLE: italic"><b><font size="1">Ronsen hammers/prep<br>Sitka Sound
boards<br>Belly packages</font></b></span><tt><tt><br><br><font size="2"> Poor decisions are rarely made right by a greater commitment to
them.</font> <br> <font size="2">"<b>David
Love</b>"</font></tt></tt><br><br></div>
<div> Hi Dale<br> DO you mean bridge pins to the underside e
of the plate strut? Bold underlined is unclear<br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: arial,helvetica; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">-----Original
Message-----<br>From: Dale Probst <<a href="mailto:dale@wardprobst.com">dale@wardprobst.com</a>><br>To:
<a href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</a><br>Sent: Sat, Jul 2, 2011 9:34 am<br><span class="609191716-02072011"><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial"><br></font></span>
<div id="AOLMsgPart_2_72a7aa34-2293-4660-9bc9-383a0003b763">
<div><span class="609191716-02072011"><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial"></font></span> </div>
<div><span class="609191716-02072011"><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial">On a
piano related subject- hitch pins from a 1911 O Steinway are drilled at
angle but there is not enough room for the <u><b>remnant to clear between the
newly </b><b>finished plate and soundboard</b></u>. Don't ask me how I
found this out, just tell me it will all work out.....</font></span></div>
<div><span class="609191716-02072011"><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial"></font></span> </div>
<div><span class="609191716-02072011"><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial">Best,</font></span></div>
<div><span class="609191716-02072011"><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial">Dale</font></span></div>
<div><span class="609191716-02072011">
<div align="left"><font size="2">Dale Probst RPT</font></div>
<div align="left"><font size="2">Registered Piano Technician</font></div>
<div align="left"><font size="2">Ward & Probst, Inc.</font></div>
<div align="left"><font size="2"><a href="http://www.wardprobst.com/" target="_blank">www.wardprobst.com</a></font></div>
<div align="left"><font size="2"><a href="mailto:dale@wardprobst.com">dale@wardprobst.com</a></font></div>
<div align="left"><font size="2"></font> </div></span></div>
<blockquote style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px" dir="ltr">
<div></div>
<div dir="ltr" lang="en-us" class="OutlookMessageHeader" align="left"><font size="2" face="Tahoma">-----Original Message-----<br><b>From:</b> <a href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org">pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</a> [<a href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org?">mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Encore Pianos<br><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, July 02, 2011
10:55 AM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re:
[pianotech] [OT] Stuff Which Should Really Be on PTG-L<br><br></font></div>
<div class="WordSection1">
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black">It’s great to continue the
discussion in this spirit. I am finding out that we have more areas of
common ground than I previously thought. And I understand what you are
trying to say better because you have worked to clarify it. Thank
you. I hope I have been able to do the same for you. Good
communication is hard work sometimes, isn’t it? It is good to hear
that several board members are open to going in another direction if HL
finally proves to be inadequate. I know that part of my fear was that
everything was a done deal and we were going to be stuck with something that
does not serve us well and ultimately pulls us down. </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black"></span> </div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black">I think we are in agreement
that we should move forward from the old list. If we can find the
right program, I believe most people would migrate without too much
complaining, and we could all move to better things. </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black"></span> </div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black">Tell me if you think this is
reasonable:</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black"></span> </div>
<div style="TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1" class="MsoListParagraph"><span style="COLOR: black"><span style="mso-list: Ignore">1.<span style="FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'">
</span></span></span><span style="COLOR: black">Keep the old list going a
bit longer <i>in the near term</i> just as we are doing now.
</span></div>
<div style="TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1" class="MsoListParagraph"><span style="COLOR: black"><span style="mso-list: Ignore">2.<span style="FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'">
</span></span></span><span style="COLOR: black">Compile a comprehensive list
of problems, bugs, complaints with the HL e-mail server (no doubt you are
doing this already) and have our agent (Phil Bondi?) go at it with HL and
establish where we are at now, what can be fixed and when, and where we are
going to end up at the end of that. Report back to the committee.
(It would be great if he has enough time to do this before council so
that it could be part of the discussion). At which point, ask
ourselves if that is enough, or do we need to explore other options to
best serve PTG and the list.</span></div>
<div style="TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1" class="MsoListParagraph"><span style="COLOR: black"><span style="mso-list: Ignore">3.<span style="FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'">
</span></span></span><span style="COLOR: black">Concurrently, have some
person(s) begin exploring other options for an e-mail server that we could
agree would be better than the old list or HL. If HL proves to be more
workable than it is now, then it would be academic. But we would have
other things to compare it with, and if it proves that we need to move to
something else, we have a head start and a better perspective.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black"></span> </div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black">I understand the
desirability of have an e-mail server that integrates with Member Max and
why that should be part of the decision as to what to use. But is it a
deal breaker if we can find a great e-mail server that does not integrate
with Member Max? Particulary if our projections of the workability of
HL are not encouraging? I hope that will not be the tipping point when
making a choice between HL and something else. </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black"></span> </div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black">Fruit only, no
cabbages? </span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Wingdings; COLOR: black">J</span><span style="COLOR: black"></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black"></span> </div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black">Will</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black"></span> </div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black"></span> </div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black"></span> </div>
<div class="MsoListParagraph"><span style="COLOR: black"></span> </div>
<div>
<div style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<div class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</span></b><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <a href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org">pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</a> [<a href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org?">mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Dale Probst<br><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, July 02, 2011
10:41 AM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re:
[pianotech] [OT] Stuff Which Should Really Be on
PTG-L</span></div></div></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"> </div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: blue">Hi Will,</span></div></div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"> </div></div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: blue">One last clarification- I
didn't say I</span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
"</span><span style="COLOR: black"> believe that the Higher Logic program is
sufficient to meet our needs and encourage large participation by the
membership</span><span style="COLOR: blue">". As far as I'm concerned that
is yet to be proven. I am open to other programs and have been assured by
several board members that if we can't get HL to work for us we will go
another direction. I am on several woodworking forums: Woodnet, Sawmill
Creek and BT3Central are the ones I monitor regularly. They mostly use
VBulletin which is a pretty good package. But it doesn't do any of the other
things that HL does by integrating with our Member Max database. It's an
email handler and that's it. </span></div></div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: blue">As usual, when you really dig
into issues, there is more to it than appears on the surface. When your
issue is your only concern you are apt to miss parts of the larger picture
and that applies to me also. What I've been trying to point out is that if
you want more posts on this list serve, the best way I know to encourage
that is to post piano related content and volunteer to do the work necessary
to keep the creaky old Mailman software going. You do have the option of
doing that on HL also which is something we didn't have before. You can do
one or the other or both. I think that is a good thing but as I said before,
I'm used to being in the minority. </span></div></div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"> </div></div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: blue">Thanks for the good luck and
I only wish we could have a beverage together in KC, I'm better in person
than on email....at least I think I am 8~}</span></div></div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"> </div></div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: blue">I'll be at the Pianotech Live
meeting for any of you who wish to throw fruit, I prefer softer
varieties.</span></div></div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"> </div></div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: blue">Dale</span></div></div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Dale Probst
RPT</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Registered Piano
Technician</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Ward & Probst,
Inc.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><a href="http://www.wardprobst.com/" target="_blank">www.wardprobst.com</a></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><a href="mailto:dale@wardprobst.com">dale@wardprobst.com</a></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"> </div></div>
<blockquote style="MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in"><div style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">-----Original
Message-----<br><b>From:</b> <a href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org">pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</a> [<a href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org?">mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Encore Pianos<br><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, July 02, 2011
8:16 AM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b>
Re: [pianotech] [OT] Stuff Which Should Really Be on PTG-L</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black">Hi Dale:</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black"></span> </div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black">Thanks for your further
clarification about the purpose of ptg-l. I did misunderstand what
you were trying to say in your earlier post. Patrick Draine was kind
enough to contact me privately and correct my misunderstanding.
</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black"></span> </div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black">I don’t want to keep
making the same points over and over, nor do I think you do either.
We both have pretty much presented our case. </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black"></span> </div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black">Given the content of the
discussion we have had about the Higher Logic program I think it would be
very timely and useful for Phil Bondi to write a post to both forums where
he updates us on his interaction with the folks at HL, and progress on the
problems with the program that so many have experienced. Regardless
of where we sit on the issue, it would be to everyone’s benefit to know
more about what is going on. </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black"></span> </div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black">I am all for having a
better software system to manage the Pianotech Forum. Really.
The old format is long in the tooth and has its own set of foibles, as we
all know. Call me naïve, but I can’t help believe that there is
something out there that is much better at doing this than the Higher
Logic program. And affordable. No one would be happier than I
to find a program that is better than the Higher Logic program and the old
format, and that allows us to do more. Where you and I fundamentally
disagree is that you believe that the Higher Logic program is sufficient
to meet our needs and encourage large participation by the membership, and
I say no on both accounts. </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black"></span> </div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black">Good luck with your class,
and enjoy yourself in KC.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black"></span> </div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black">Will</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black"></span> </div>
<div>
<div style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<div class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</span></b><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <a href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org">pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</a> [<a href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org?">mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Dale Probst<br><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, July 02, 2011
8:16 AM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b>
Re: [pianotech] [OT] Stuff Which Should Really Be on
PTG-L</span></div></div></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"> </div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Hi
Will,</span></div></div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"> </div></div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I'm
going to try once more to explain. PTG-L is NOT limited to Council
delegates it is open to every member of PTG. It was set up for discussion
of membership issues such as dissatisfaction with Higher Logic, doubling
dues, instructor reimbursement, what ever. I realize that there are non
members and former members on the list and yes their concerns are
important too. But the members will decide what happens with the
organization because they pay the freight with their dues and volunteer
contributions. </span></div></div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"> </div></div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Second
point- technicians will go where the content is- period. I'll concede that
they will can be dissuaded by the difficulties of using software. I'm no
computer whiz but I have had very few problems accessing the discussions
on Higher Logic. I do it from my home computer and it does what I need.
Would I like to see improvements? You bet and I've submitted my punch list
to my RVP and Phil Bondi. My point is very simple- if you want this list
to continue you and all people who agree with you need to submit technical
posts to list and volunteer to maintain it. We are using an old version of
mailman and spam and virus protection is a real problem. It requires
admins to go through the grey lists and forward posts that are held up by
the anti spam/virus software we use.</span></div></div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"> </div></div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Third
point- list access will change over time. As I said, I used to access it
via a bulletin board, then in real time and finally through the archives.
As a sitting officer on the Board, I was reading every list- PTG had 66 of
them at the time. The volume of off topic and me too posts on
pianotech made it impractical for me to continue in real time. If I had
not adapted to a less than perfect method of reading pianotech I would
have lost out on the discussion. So I adapted. </span></div></div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"> </div></div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Fourth,
you can blame HL for the loss of community but HL did not change anything
on this list. It only gave those of us who needed another way of
participating an option. If you don't want to change over, don't. Sign up
to maintain this list and send all the posts you want here. I'm good with
that. Just don't blame the other site for reducing participation here.
Nothing has changed here. </span></div></div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"> </div></div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I
hope that explains my position adequately and apologize for my inability
to communicate better. I'm trying to get a rebuild out before I leave for
KC and have class presentations to polish. Not to mention that I'll
be a delegate for my chapter. That's why I'm participating here but I
still believe we should be on ptg-l where more delegates would see the
discussion.</span></div></div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"> </div></div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Adios,</span></div></div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">DP</span></div></div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Dale
Probst RPT</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Registered
Piano Technician</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Ward
& Probst, Inc.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><a href="http://www.wardprobst.com/" target="_blank">www.wardprobst.com</a></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><a href="mailto:dale@wardprobst.com">dale@wardprobst.com</a></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></span> </div></div>
<blockquote style="MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in">
<div style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">-----Original
Message-----<br><b>From:</b> <a href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org">pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</a>
[<a href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org?">mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Encore Pianos<br><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, July 02,
2011 5:45 AM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b>
Re: [pianotech] [OT] Stuff Which Should Really Be on PTG-L</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black">Hi Dale:</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black"></span> </div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black">May I call you
Dale? Please call me Will. </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black"></span> </div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black">I wasn’t making any
statement comparing quantity and quality by sharing the statistics that
I garnered from the archives. I didn’t have time to reread 5000
messages in the time period quoted and compile content lists piano and
non-piano. Even surveying the subject titles and doing that would
not be accurate, as we both know how the subject can change from one
thing to another (both piano and non piano related), yet the title
remains the same. That has been a problem of message discipline
for years and will likely not change no matter what the format for
e-mail server.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black"></span> </div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black">But my point about the
decline in participation still stands, I think. The reason for
that is that the statistics I quoted reflect both Pianotech Lists, the
old and the new. And the very significant drop coincides with the
implementation of the new forum software. Further, the
overwhelming number of comments by List participants in the last few
days – where they are articulating their concerns and feelings – support
the contention that decline in participation is in response to the
inadequacies of the new system. </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black"></span> </div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I
suggested moving it to ptg-l because that is what that list is for-
discussion of PTG policies and procedures. That list is limited to
members who will have opportunity to change things at Council.
Discussing it here is contrary to the stated purpose of this list which
should be about piano technology.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></span> </div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black">On the one hand, I
understand your point about topic segregation and what the various lists
are for. In and of itself, that is not a bad thing and may be
useful to help manage the list topics better. I am not
unsympathetic to that aspect of it. But, like subject headings and
message content, it is subject to the vagaries of member self-discipline
as compliance is voluntary. Some will bother and some wont.
That’s just the way it is.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black"></span> </div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black">I find the second
sentence quoted above telling. You want me to have this discussion
on ptg-l. But ptg-l is limited to council delegates, as you state
here. Since I am not a council delegate, I cannot have this
discussion on ptg-l. But I cannot have it on Pianotech either,
since that is for piano related topics only. The logic of your
argument then, is that there is no forum for my voice. Nor, more
tellingly, for the hundreds?of messages in the last few days, no voice
either, since most of them are likely not council delegates. The
net effect of our voluntary compliance with your dictum is that we
should swallow our widespread dissent and shut up.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black"></span> </div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black">I am troubled by some of
your characterizations about what software is in vogue at the time, and
people wanting to adapt. As if our complaints are based on mere
personal preference and we are too lazy to adapt to new ways of doing
things. When things change, we should make the effort to
adapt. But I think you are barking up the wrong tree.
</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black"></span> </div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black">The key here is that the
Pianotech Forum is based entirely on voluntary participation and
compliance. If you want us to do things in a certain way – meaning
those of you who will effect changes related to this forum – then you
have the task of persuading us to do things in a new way, since I do not
believe you want the forum to be used by only 10 members instead of
1000. And certainly one of the strongest measures of success would
be how widely the Pianotech Forum is used by members. That
means that those encharged with the responsibilities of finding and
implementing new software should be looking for something that the
members will like and want to use. That’s not an easy task,
as you are going to have to second guess what we will want to
do. That said, some things will bring about a greater chance of
success. </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black"></span> </div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black">The interface is where
it all starts. Ideally, the software would be easy to use,
consistent, reliable, and not buggy. Good interface design allows
you to get from here to there in the fewest possible steps, when we are
talking about the basic functions that all of us are going to do most of
the time. There should be a consistent internal logic that makes
usage seem easy and intuitive. The more you have to use Help to
navigate a program, the less successful its design is. And the
fewer your chances are for widespread adoption by a membership that will
have to be persuaded that it is worth bothering.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black"></span> </div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black">The Higher Logic program
throws up roadblocks at the most basic levels of functionality.
It’s a damn pain in the ass to use, it’s poorly designed, and has too
many bugs – particularly for a program that should be mature and stable
by now. And, acknowledge this or not, too many people have
voted with their feet and ended or greatly reduced their participation
in the forum. By that measure, it’s a failure. But don’t
blame the victims. </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black"></span> </div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black">Yes, I am blaming the
loss of community on the difficulty of using the Higher Logic
Software. If I were only one voice, that would make my dissent
insignificant. But, change a few details, so have said the vast
majority of respondents in the last few days. We are merely
reflecting a very real problem with bad software, and we are complaining
because we want a great forum that we fear the new software in effect is
taking away from us.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black"></span> </div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black">Dale, I appreciate
you taking the time to respond and hope this discussion can continue
between you and I, and others as well. </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black"></span> </div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black">Most respectfully yours,
</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black"></span> </div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black">Will</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black"></span> </div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black"></span> </div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black"></span> </div>
<div>
<div style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<div class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</span></b><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <a href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org">pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</a>
[<a href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org?">mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Dale Probst<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, July 01, 2011
9:40 PM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b>
Re: [pianotech] [OT] Stuff Which Should Really Be on
PTG-L</span></div></div></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"> </div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Hello
Mr. Truitt,</span></div></div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"> </div></div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I
think you are equating quantity with quality both in the statistics on
number of posts and on the larger audience here on pianotech. I
suggested moving it to ptg-l because that is what that list is for-
discussion of PTG policies and procedures. That list is limited to
members who will have opportunity to change things at Council.
Discussing it here is contrary to the stated purpose of this list which
should be about piano technology. You are free to disagree but if
you want to implement changes in PTG, I suggest that you follow the
policies and procedures that have been developed by the membership for
implementing those changes. You may get a lot of "attaboy" and "me too"
here but unless those folks follow up with their delegates to Council,
this is as far as you will get. </span></div></div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"> </div></div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I
know I'm in the minority here, it's fine, been there before. I' started
on the list before it was even a list and was still on a bulletin
board. I've seen a lot of people come and go. I've didn't post much when
I was on the Board because I was reading the list from the archives and
it was a pain. So, I know what it feels like to be shut out from the
list by software I could not deal with. </span></div></div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"> </div></div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Pianotech
as a community will exist no matter what the software is in vogue at the
time. People will come and go, things will change and some won't bother
to adapt. But if it's truly a valuable community, which I believe it is,
it will prosper no matter what inconveniences pop up. If you want to
keep this list stasis indefinitely all that is needed is a group of
volunteers to deal with administrations issues and a request for action
to the board. But be careful what you ask for, it's been relatively easy
so far but then you would be getting into real work. Work that Andy
Rudoff, Ron Berry, Phil Bondi, Kent Swafford, Dave Porritt, Brian
Lawson, John Baird and others have done on their own time for years
without complaining. </span></div></div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"> </div></div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">You
are putting the blame for the loss of community on the difficulty of
using the Higher Logic software. Just consider for a moment that the
blame may equally lie on the lack of substantial piano related topics on
this list. People will go where the content is, that's human nature.
There have been some decent discussions on the HL site and I hope to see
more. And any of you can go there and review them whenever you want. Or
you can stay here and do the work necessary to maintain this list. Or
something else can happen. But this community won't die because of a
software issue. It will only die if it becomes irrelevant to the people
involved.</span></div></div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"> </div></div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Mr.
Truitt, whether that happens would be up to you and the other
members of this community, no one or thing else.</span></div></div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"> </div></div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Dale</span></div></div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">PS-
I didn't respond to your post earlier because I wanted to think about it
before I replied, sorry it wasn't on your timetable.</span></div></div>
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