<font color='navy' size='2' face='Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, Serif'><font color="navy" face="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, Serif" size="2">
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div style="clear:both"><font size="1"><b><font color="indigo" face="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, Serif">Dale S. Erwin<br>
www.Erwinspiano.com<br>
209-577-8397</font></b></font><font size="1"><b><br>
209-985-0990</b><br>
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D"></span><b><i><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black"></span></i></b></font><font color="navy" face="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, Serif" size="1"><i><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black"></span></i></font><span style="font-style: italic;"><b><font size="1">Ronsen hammers/prep<br>
Sitka Sound boards<br>
Belly packages</font></b></span><tt><tt><br>
<br>
<font size="2"> Poor decisions are rarely made right by a greater
commitment to them.</font> <br>
<font size="2">"<b>David Love</b>"</font></tt></tt><br>
<br>
</div>
<div> Hi Dale<br>
DO you mean bridge pins to the underside e of the plate strut? Bold underlined is unclear<br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Dale Probst <dale@wardprobst.com><br>
To: pianotech@ptg.org<br>
Sent: Sat, Jul 2, 2011 9:34 am<br>
<span class="609191716-02072011"><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"><br>
</font></span>
<div id="AOLMsgPart_2_72a7aa34-2293-4660-9bc9-383a0003b763">
<div><span class="609191716-02072011"><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"></font></span> </div>
<div><span class="609191716-02072011"><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2">On a
piano related subject- hitch pins from a 1911 O Steinway are drilled at
angle but there is not enough room for the <u><b>remnant to clear between the newly
</b><b>finished plate and soundboard</b></u>. Don't ask me how I found this out, just tell
me it will all work out.....</font></span></div>
<div><span class="609191716-02072011"><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"></font></span> </div>
<div><span class="609191716-02072011"><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2">Best,</font></span></div>
<div><span class="609191716-02072011"><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2">Dale</font></span></div>
<div><span class="609191716-02072011">
<div align="left"><font size="2">Dale Probst RPT</font></div>
<div align="left"><font size="2">Registered Piano Technician</font></div>
<div align="left"><font size="2">Ward & Probst, Inc.</font></div>
<div align="left"><font size="2"><a target="_blank" href="http://www.wardprobst.com/">www.wardprobst.com</a></font></div>
<div align="left"><font size="2"><a href="mailto:dale@wardprobst.com">dale@wardprobst.com</a></font></div>
<div align="left"><font size="2"></font> </div>
</span></div>
<blockquote style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px" dir="ltr">
<div></div>
<div dir="ltr" class="OutlookMessageHeader" align="left" lang="en-us"><font face="Tahoma" size="2">-----Original Message-----<br>
<b>From:</b>
<a href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org">pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</a> [<a href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org?">mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of
</b>Encore Pianos<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, July 02, 2011 10:55
AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [pianotech] [OT]
Stuff Which Should Really Be on PTG-L<br>
<br>
</font></div>
<div class="WordSection1">
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black">It’s great to continue the
discussion in this spirit. I am finding out that we have more areas of
common ground than I previously thought. And I understand what you are
trying to say better because you have worked to clarify it. Thank
you. I hope I have been able to do the same for you. Good
communication is hard work sometimes, isn’t it? It is good to hear that
several board members are open to going in another direction if HL finally
proves to be inadequate. I know that part of my fear was that everything
was a done deal and we were going to be stuck with something that does not
serve us well and ultimately pulls us down. </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black"> </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black">I think we are in agreement that
we should move forward from the old list. If we can find the right
program, I believe most people would migrate without too much complaining, and
we could all move to better things. </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black"> </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black">Tell me if you think this is
reasonable:</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black"> </span></div>
<div style="TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1" class="MsoListParagraph"><span style="COLOR: black"><span style="mso-list: Ignore">1.<span style="FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'">
</span></span></span><span style="COLOR: black">Keep the old list
going a bit longer <i>in the near term</i> just as we are doing now.
</span></div>
<div style="TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1" class="MsoListParagraph"><span style="COLOR: black"><span style="mso-list: Ignore">2.<span style="FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'">
</span></span></span><span style="COLOR: black">Compile a
comprehensive list of problems, bugs, complaints with the HL e-mail server (no
doubt you are doing this already) and have our agent (Phil Bondi?) go at it
with HL and establish where we are at now, what can be fixed and when, and
where we are going to end up at the end of that. Report back to the
committee. (It would be great if he has enough time to do this before
council so that it could be part of the discussion). At which point, ask
ourselves if that is enough, or do we need to explore other options to
best serve PTG and the list.</span></div>
<div style="TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1" class="MsoListParagraph"><span style="COLOR: black"><span style="mso-list: Ignore">3.<span style="FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'">
</span></span></span><span style="COLOR: black">Concurrently, have
some person(s) begin exploring other options for an e-mail server that we
could agree would be better than the old list or HL. If HL proves to be
more workable than it is now, then it would be academic. But we would
have other things to compare it with, and if it proves that we need to move to
something else, we have a head start and a better
perspective.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black"> </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black">I understand the desirability of
have an e-mail server that integrates with Member Max and why that should be
part of the decision as to what to use. But is it a deal breaker if we
can find a great e-mail server that does not integrate with Member Max?
Particulary if our projections of the workability of HL are not
encouraging? I hope that will not be the tipping point when making a
choice between HL and something else. </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black"> </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black">Fruit only, no cabbages?
</span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Wingdings; COLOR: black">J</span><span style="COLOR: black"></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black"> </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black">Will</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black"> </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black"> </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black"> </span></div>
<div class="MsoListParagraph"><span style="COLOR: black"> </span></div>
<div>
<div style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<div class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</span></b><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
<a href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org">pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</a> [<a href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org?">mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of
</b>Dale Probst<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, July 02, 2011 10:41 AM<br>
<b>To:</b>
<a href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [pianotech] [OT] Stuff Which Should
Really Be on PTG-L</span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="MsoNormal"> </div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: blue">Hi
Will,</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: blue">One last clarification- I didn't
say I</span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
"</span><span style="COLOR: black"> believe that the Higher Logic program is
sufficient to meet our needs and encourage large participation by the
membership</span><span style="COLOR: blue">". As far as I'm concerned that is
yet to be proven. I am open to other programs and have been assured by several
board members that if we can't get HL to work for us we will go another
direction. I am on several woodworking forums: Woodnet, Sawmill Creek and
BT3Central are the ones I monitor regularly. They mostly use VBulletin which
is a pretty good package. But it doesn't do any of the other things that HL
does by integrating with our Member Max database. It's an email handler and
that's it. </span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: blue">As usual, when you really dig
into issues, there is more to it than appears on the surface. When your issue
is your only concern you are apt to miss parts of the larger picture and that
applies to me also. What I've been trying to point out is that if you want
more posts on this list serve, the best way I know to encourage that is to
post piano related content and volunteer to do the work necessary to keep the
creaky old Mailman software going. You do have the option of doing that on HL
also which is something we didn't have before. You can do one or the other or
both. I think that is a good thing but as I said before, I'm used to being in
the minority. </span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: blue">Thanks for the good luck and I
only wish we could have a beverage together in KC, I'm better in person than
on email....at least I think I am 8~}</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: blue">I'll be at the Pianotech Live
meeting for any of you who wish to throw fruit, I prefer softer
varieties.</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: blue">Dale</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Dale Probst
RPT</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Registered Piano
Technician</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Ward & Probst,
Inc.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><a target="_blank" href="http://www.wardprobst.com/">www.wardprobst.com</a></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><a href="mailto:dale@wardprobst.com">dale@wardprobst.com</a></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"> </div>
</div>
<blockquote style="MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in">
<div style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">-----Original
Message-----<br>
<b>From:</b> <a href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org">pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</a>
[<a href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org?">mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Encore
Pianos<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, July 02, 2011 8:16 AM<br>
<b>To:</b>
<a href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [pianotech] [OT] Stuff Which Should
Really Be on PTG-L</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black">Hi Dale:</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black"> </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black">Thanks for your further
clarification about the purpose of ptg-l. I did misunderstand what you
were trying to say in your earlier post. Patrick Draine was kind
enough to contact me privately and correct my misunderstanding.
</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black"> </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black">I don’t want to keep making
the same points over and over, nor do I think you do either. We both
have pretty much presented our case. </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black"> </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black">Given the content of the
discussion we have had about the Higher Logic program I think it would be
very timely and useful for Phil Bondi to write a post to both forums where
he updates us on his interaction with the folks at HL, and progress on the
problems with the program that so many have experienced. Regardless of
where we sit on the issue, it would be to everyone’s benefit to know more
about what is going on. </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black"> </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black">I am all for having a better
software system to manage the Pianotech Forum. Really. The old
format is long in the tooth and has its own set of foibles, as we all
know. Call me naïve, but I can’t help believe that there is something
out there that is much better at doing this than the Higher Logic
program. And affordable. No one would be happier than I to find
a program that is better than the Higher Logic program and the old format,
and that allows us to do more. Where you and I fundamentally disagree
is that you believe that the Higher Logic program is sufficient to meet our
needs and encourage large participation by the membership, and I say no on
both accounts. </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black"> </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black">Good luck with your class, and
enjoy yourself in KC.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black"> </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black">Will</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black"> </span></div>
<div>
<div style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<div class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</span></b><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
<a href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org">pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</a> [<a href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org?">mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of
</b>Dale Probst<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, July 02, 2011 8:16
AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [pianotech] [OT]
Stuff Which Should Really Be on PTG-L</span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="MsoNormal"> </div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Hi
Will,</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I'm
going to try once more to explain. PTG-L is NOT limited to Council delegates
it is open to every member of PTG. It was set up for discussion of
membership issues such as dissatisfaction with Higher Logic, doubling dues,
instructor reimbursement, what ever. I realize that there are non members
and former members on the list and yes their concerns are important too. But
the members will decide what happens with the organization because they pay
the freight with their dues and volunteer contributions.
</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Second
point- technicians will go where the content is- period. I'll concede that
they will can be dissuaded by the difficulties of using software. I'm no
computer whiz but I have had very few problems accessing the discussions on
Higher Logic. I do it from my home computer and it does what I need. Would I
like to see improvements? You bet and I've submitted my punch list to my RVP
and Phil Bondi. My point is very simple- if you want this list to continue
you and all people who agree with you need to submit technical posts to list
and volunteer to maintain it. We are using an old version of mailman and
spam and virus protection is a real problem. It requires admins to go
through the grey lists and forward posts that are held up by the anti
spam/virus software we use.</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Third
point- list access will change over time. As I said, I used to access it via
a bulletin board, then in real time and finally through the archives. As a
sitting officer on the Board, I was reading every list- PTG had 66 of them
at the time. The volume of off topic and me too posts on pianotech made
it impractical for me to continue in real time. If I had not adapted to a
less than perfect method of reading pianotech I would have lost out on the
discussion. So I adapted. </span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Fourth,
you can blame HL for the loss of community but HL did not change anything on
this list. It only gave those of us who needed another way of participating
an option. If you don't want to change over, don't. Sign up to maintain this
list and send all the posts you want here. I'm good with that. Just don't
blame the other site for reducing participation here. Nothing has changed
here. </span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I
hope that explains my position adequately and apologize for my inability to
communicate better. I'm trying to get a rebuild out before I leave for KC
and have class presentations to polish. Not to mention that I'll be a
delegate for my chapter. That's why I'm participating here but I still
believe we should be on ptg-l where more delegates would see the
discussion.</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Adios,</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">DP</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Dale
Probst RPT</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Registered
Piano Technician</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Ward
& Probst, Inc.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><a target="_blank" href="http://www.wardprobst.com/">www.wardprobst.com</a></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><a href="mailto:dale@wardprobst.com">dale@wardprobst.com</a></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> </span></div>
</div>
<blockquote style="MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in">
<div style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">-----Original
Message-----<br>
<b>From:</b> <a href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org">pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</a>
[<a href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org?">mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Encore
Pianos<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, July 02, 2011 5:45 AM<br>
<b>To:</b>
<a href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [pianotech] [OT] Stuff Which
Should Really Be on PTG-L</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black">Hi
Dale:</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black"> </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black">May I call you Dale?
Please call me Will. </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black"> </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black">I wasn’t making any
statement comparing quantity and quality by sharing the statistics that I
garnered from the archives. I didn’t have time to reread 5000
messages in the time period quoted and compile content lists piano and
non-piano. Even surveying the subject titles and doing that would
not be accurate, as we both know how the subject can change from one thing
to another (both piano and non piano related), yet the title remains the
same. That has been a problem of message discipline for years and
will likely not change no matter what the format for e-mail
server.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black"> </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black">But my point about the
decline in participation still stands, I think. The reason for that
is that the statistics I quoted reflect both Pianotech Lists, the old and
the new. And the very significant drop coincides with the
implementation of the new forum software. Further, the overwhelming
number of comments by List participants in the last few days – where they
are articulating their concerns and feelings – support the contention that
decline in participation is in response to the inadequacies of the new
system. </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black"> </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I
suggested moving it to ptg-l because that is what that list is for-
discussion of PTG policies and procedures. That list is limited to
members who will have opportunity to change things at Council. Discussing
it here is contrary to the stated purpose of this list which should be
about piano technology.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black">On the one hand, I
understand your point about topic segregation and what the various lists
are for. In and of itself, that is not a bad thing and may be useful
to help manage the list topics better. I am not unsympathetic to
that aspect of it. But, like subject headings and message content,
it is subject to the vagaries of member self-discipline as compliance is
voluntary. Some will bother and some wont. That’s just the way
it is.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black"> </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black">I find the second sentence
quoted above telling. You want me to have this discussion on
ptg-l. But ptg-l is limited to council delegates, as you state
here. Since I am not a council delegate, I cannot have this
discussion on ptg-l. But I cannot have it on Pianotech either, since
that is for piano related topics only. The logic of your argument
then, is that there is no forum for my voice. Nor, more tellingly,
for the hundreds?of messages in the last few days, no voice either, since
most of them are likely not council delegates. The net effect of our
voluntary compliance with your dictum is that we should swallow our
widespread dissent and shut up.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black"> </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black">I am troubled by some of
your characterizations about what software is in vogue at the time, and
people wanting to adapt. As if our complaints are based on mere
personal preference and we are too lazy to adapt to new ways of doing
things. When things change, we should make the effort to
adapt. But I think you are barking up the wrong tree.
</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black"> </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black">The key here is that the
Pianotech Forum is based entirely on voluntary participation and
compliance. If you want us to do things in a certain way – meaning
those of you who will effect changes related to this forum – then you have
the task of persuading us to do things in a new way, since I do not
believe you want the forum to be used by only 10 members instead of
1000. And certainly one of the strongest measures of success would
be how widely the Pianotech Forum is used by members. That
means that those encharged with the responsibilities of finding and
implementing new software should be looking for something that the
members will like and want to use. That’s not an easy task, as
you are going to have to second guess what we will want to do. That
said, some things will bring about a greater chance of success.
</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black"> </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black">The interface is where it
all starts. Ideally, the software would be easy to use, consistent,
reliable, and not buggy. Good interface design allows you to get
from here to there in the fewest possible steps, when we are talking about
the basic functions that all of us are going to do most of the time.
There should be a consistent internal logic that makes usage seem easy and
intuitive. The more you have to use Help to navigate a program, the
less successful its design is. And the fewer your chances are for
widespread adoption by a membership that will have to be persuaded that it
is worth bothering.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black"> </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black">The Higher Logic program
throws up roadblocks at the most basic levels of functionality. It’s
a damn pain in the ass to use, it’s poorly designed, and has too many bugs
– particularly for a program that should be mature and stable by
now. And, acknowledge this or not, too many people have voted
with their feet and ended or greatly reduced their participation in the
forum. By that measure, it’s a failure. But don’t blame the
victims. </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black"> </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black">Yes, I am blaming the loss
of community on the difficulty of using the Higher Logic Software.
If I were only one voice, that would make my dissent insignificant.
But, change a few details, so have said the vast majority of respondents
in the last few days. We are merely reflecting a very real problem
with bad software, and we are complaining because we want a great forum
that we fear the new software in effect is taking away from
us.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black"> </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black">Dale, I appreciate you
taking the time to respond and hope this discussion can continue between
you and I, and others as well. </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black"> </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black">Most respectfully yours,
</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black"> </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black">Will</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black"> </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black"> </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: black"> </span></div>
<div>
<div style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<div class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</span></b><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
<a href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org">pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</a> [<a href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org?">mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</a>] <b>On Behalf
Of </b>Dale Probst<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, July 01, 2011 9:40
PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [pianotech] [OT]
Stuff Which Should Really Be on PTG-L</span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="MsoNormal"> </div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Hello
Mr. Truitt,</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I
think you are equating quantity with quality both in the statistics on
number of posts and on the larger audience here on pianotech. I suggested
moving it to ptg-l because that is what that list is for- discussion of
PTG policies and procedures. That list is limited to members who will
have opportunity to change things at Council. Discussing it here is
contrary to the stated purpose of this list which should be about piano
technology. You are free to disagree but if you want to implement
changes in PTG, I suggest that you follow the policies and procedures that
have been developed by the membership for implementing those changes. You
may get a lot of "attaboy" and "me too" here but unless those folks follow
up with their delegates to Council, this is as far as you will get.
</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I
know I'm in the minority here, it's fine, been there before. I' started on
the list before it was even a list and was still on a bulletin board.
I've seen a lot of people come and go. I've didn't post much when I was on
the Board because I was reading the list from the archives and it was a
pain. So, I know what it feels like to be shut out from the list by
software I could not deal with. </span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Pianotech
as a community will exist no matter what the software is in vogue at the
time. People will come and go, things will change and some won't bother to
adapt. But if it's truly a valuable community, which I believe it is, it
will prosper no matter what inconveniences pop up. If you want to keep
this list stasis indefinitely all that is needed is a group of
volunteers to deal with administrations issues and a request for action to
the board. But be careful what you ask for, it's been relatively easy so
far but then you would be getting into real work. Work that Andy Rudoff,
Ron Berry, Phil Bondi, Kent Swafford, Dave Porritt, Brian Lawson, John
Baird and others have done on their own time for years without
complaining. </span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">You
are putting the blame for the loss of community on the difficulty of using
the Higher Logic software. Just consider for a moment that the blame may
equally lie on the lack of substantial piano related topics on this list.
People will go where the content is, that's human nature. There have been
some decent discussions on the HL site and I hope to see more. And any of
you can go there and review them whenever you want. Or you can stay here
and do the work necessary to maintain this list. Or something else can
happen. But this community won't die because of a software issue. It will
only die if it becomes irrelevant to the people
involved.</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Mr.
Truitt, whether that happens would be up to you and the other members
of this community, no one or thing else.</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Dale</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">PS-
I didn't respond to your post earlier because I wanted to think about it
before I replied, sorry it wasn't on your
timetable.</span></div>
</div>
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<div class="MsoNormal"> </div>
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</blockquote>
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