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<DIV><SPAN class=343564518-02072011><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial>Hey
Dale,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=343564518-02072011><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=343564518-02072011><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial>PTG-L
is on the <A href="mailto:myptg@ptg.org">myptg@ptg.org</A> site. There are some
posts there by Fred Sturm, Keith McGavern and others you might find interesting.
If you have trouble getting on, email or call me and I'll walk you
through.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=343564518-02072011><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=343564518-02072011><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial>Best,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=343564518-02072011><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial>the
other dale</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px" dir=ltr>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr lang=en-us class=OutlookMessageHeader align=left><FONT size=2
face=Tahoma>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>
pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] <B>On Behalf Of
</B>Dale Erwin<BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, July 02, 2011 11:31 AM<BR><B>To:</B>
pianotech@ptg.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [pianotech] [OT] Stuff Which Should
Really Be on PTG-L<BR><BR></FONT></DIV><FONT color=navy size=2
face="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, Serif"> H<FONT color=navy size=2
face="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, Serif">i Dale<BR> How do I get
there from here?<BR>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial,helvetica; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
<BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3px">
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN class=656435311-02072011>I
hope that explains my position adequately and apologize for my inability to
communicate better. I'm trying to get a rebuild out before I leave for KC
and have class presentations to polish. Not to mention that I'll be a
delegate for my chapter. That's why I'm participating here but I still
believe we should be on ptg-l where more delegates would see the
discussion.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
class=656435311-02072011></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
class=656435311-02072011>Adios,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
class=656435311-02072011>DP</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN class=656435311-02072011>
<DIV align=left><FONT size=2>Dale Probst RPT</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT size=2>Registered Piano Technician</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT size=2>Ward & Probst, Inc.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT size=2><A href="http://www.wardprobst.com/"
target=_blank>www.wardprobst.com</A></FONT></DIV></SPAN></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="CLEAR: both"><FONT size=1><B><FONT color=indigo
face="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, Serif">Dale S.
Erwin<BR>www.Erwinspiano.com<BR>209-577-8397</FONT></B></FONT><FONT
size=1><B><BR>209-985-0990</B><BR><SPAN
style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN><B><I><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></I></B></FONT><FONT color=navy
size=1 face="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, Serif"><I><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></I></FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-STYLE: italic"><B><FONT size=1>Ronsen hammers/prep<BR>Sitka Sound
boards<BR>Belly packages</FONT></B></SPAN><TT><TT><BR><BR><FONT
size=2> Poor decisions are rarely made right by a greater commitment to
them.</FONT> <BR> <FONT size=2>"<B>David
Love</B>"</FONT></TT></TT><BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: arial,helvetica; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">-----Original
Message-----<BR>From: Dale Probst <dale@wardprobst.com><BR>To:
pianotech@ptg.org<BR>Sent: Sat, Jul 2, 2011 5:16 am<BR>Subject: Re:
[pianotech] [OT] Stuff Which Should Really Be on PTG-L<BR><BR>
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<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN class=656435311-02072011>Hi
Will,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
class=656435311-02072011></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN class=656435311-02072011>I'm
going to try once more to explain. PTG-L is NOT limited to Council delegates
it is open to every member of PTG. It was set up for discussion of membership
issues such as dissatisfaction with Higher Logic, doubling dues, instructor
reimbursement, what ever. I realize that there are non members and former
members on the list and yes their concerns are important too. But the members
will decide what happens with the organization because they pay the freight
with their dues and volunteer contributions. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
class=656435311-02072011></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
class=656435311-02072011>Second point- technicians will go where the content
is- period. I'll concede that they will can be dissuaded by the difficulties
of using software. I'm no computer whiz but I have had very few problems
accessing the discussions on Higher Logic. I do it from my home computer and
it does what I need. Would I like to see improvements? You bet and I've
submitted my punch list to my RVP and Phil Bondi. My point is very simple- if
you want this list to continue you and all people who agree with you need to
submit technical posts to list and volunteer to maintain it. We are using an
old version of mailman and spam and virus protection is a real problem. It
requires admins to go through the grey lists and forward posts that are held
up by the anti spam/virus software we use.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
class=656435311-02072011></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
class=656435311-02072011>Third point- list access will change over time. As I
said, I used to access it via a bulletin board, then in real time and finally
through the archives. As a sitting officer on the Board, I was reading every
list- PTG had 66 of them at the time. The volume of off topic and me too
posts on pianotech made it impractical for me to continue in real time. If I
had not adapted to a less than perfect method of reading pianotech I would
have lost out on the discussion. So I adapted. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
class=656435311-02072011></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
class=656435311-02072011>Fourth, you can blame HL for the loss of community
but HL did not change anything on this list. It only gave those of us who
needed another way of participating an option. If you don't want to change
over, don't. Sign up to maintain this list and send all the posts you want
here. I'm good with that. Just don't blame the other site for reducing
participation here. Nothing has changed here. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
class=656435311-02072011></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN class=656435311-02072011>I
hope that explains my position adequately and apologize for my inability to
communicate better. I'm trying to get a rebuild out before I leave for KC and
have class presentations to polish. Not to mention that I'll be a
delegate for my chapter. That's why I'm participating here but I still believe
we should be on ptg-l where more delegates would see the
discussion.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
class=656435311-02072011></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
class=656435311-02072011>Adios,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
class=656435311-02072011>DP</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN class=656435311-02072011>
<DIV align=left><FONT size=2>Dale Probst RPT</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT size=2>Registered Piano Technician</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT size=2>Ward & Probst, Inc.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT size=2><A href="http://www.wardprobst.com/"
target=_blank>www.wardprobst.com</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT size=2><A
href="mailto:dale@wardprobst.com">dale@wardprobst.com</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px" dir=ltr>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr lang=en-us class=OutlookMessageHeader align=left><FONT size=2
face=Tahoma>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> <A
href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org">pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</A> [<A
href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org?">mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</A>]
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Encore Pianos<BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, July 02, 2011
5:45 AM<BR><B>To:</B> <A
href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</A><BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[pianotech] [OT] Stuff Which Should Really Be on PTG-L<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=WordSection1>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Hi Dale:</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">May I call you Dale?
Please call me Will. </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">I wasn’t making any
statement comparing quantity and quality by sharing the statistics that I
garnered from the archives. I didn’t have time to reread 5000 messages
in the time period quoted and compile content lists piano and
non-piano. Even surveying the subject titles and doing that would not
be accurate, as we both know how the subject can change from one thing to
another (both piano and non piano related), yet the title remains the
same. That has been a problem of message discipline for years and will
likely not change no matter what the format for e-mail server.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">But my point about the
decline in participation still stands, I think. The reason for that is
that the statistics I quoted reflect both Pianotech Lists, the old and the
new. And the very significant drop coincides with the implementation
of the new forum software. Further, the overwhelming number of
comments by List participants in the last few days – where they are
articulating their concerns and feelings – support the contention that
decline in participation is in response to the inadequacies of the new
system. </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I
suggested moving it to ptg-l because that is what that list is for-
discussion of PTG policies and procedures. That list is limited to
members who will have opportunity to change things at Council. Discussing it
here is contrary to the stated purpose of this list which should be about
piano technology.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">On the one hand, I
understand your point about topic segregation and what the various lists are
for. In and of itself, that is not a bad thing and may be useful to
help manage the list topics better. I am not unsympathetic to that
aspect of it. But, like subject headings and message content, it is
subject to the vagaries of member self-discipline as compliance is
voluntary. Some will bother and some wont. That’s just the way
it is.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">I find the second sentence
quoted above telling. You want me to have this discussion on
ptg-l. But ptg-l is limited to council delegates, as you state
here. Since I am not a council delegate, I cannot have this discussion
on ptg-l. But I cannot have it on Pianotech either, since that is for
piano related topics only. The logic of your argument then, is that
there is no forum for my voice. Nor, more tellingly, for the
hundreds?of messages in the last few days, no voice either, since most of
them are likely not council delegates. The net effect of our voluntary
compliance with your dictum is that we should swallow our widespread dissent
and shut up.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">I am troubled by some of
your characterizations about what software is in vogue at the time, and
people wanting to adapt. As if our complaints are based on mere
personal preference and we are too lazy to adapt to new ways of doing
things. When things change, we should make the effort to adapt.
But I think you are barking up the wrong tree. </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">The key here is that the
Pianotech Forum is based entirely on voluntary participation and
compliance. If you want us to do things in a certain way – meaning
those of you who will effect changes related to this forum – then you have
the task of persuading us to do things in a new way, since I do not believe
you want the forum to be used by only 10 members instead of 1000. And
certainly one of the strongest measures of success would be how widely the
Pianotech Forum is used by members. That means that those
encharged with the responsibilities of finding and implementing new
software should be looking for something that the members will like and want
to use. That’s not an easy task, as you are going to have to
second guess what we will want to do. That said, some things will
bring about a greater chance of success. </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">The interface is where it
all starts. Ideally, the software would be easy to use, consistent,
reliable, and not buggy. Good interface design allows you to get from
here to there in the fewest possible steps, when we are talking about the
basic functions that all of us are going to do most of the time. There
should be a consistent internal logic that makes usage seem easy and
intuitive. The more you have to use Help to navigate a program, the
less successful its design is. And the fewer your chances are for
widespread adoption by a membership that will have to be persuaded that it
is worth bothering.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">The Higher Logic program
throws up roadblocks at the most basic levels of functionality. It’s a
damn pain in the ass to use, it’s poorly designed, and has too many bugs –
particularly for a program that should be mature and stable by now.
And, acknowledge this or not, too many people have voted with their
feet and ended or greatly reduced their participation in the forum. By
that measure, it’s a failure. But don’t blame the victims.
</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Yes, I am blaming the loss
of community on the difficulty of using the Higher Logic Software. If
I were only one voice, that would make my dissent insignificant. But,
change a few details, so have said the vast majority of respondents in the
last few days. We are merely reflecting a very real problem with bad
software, and we are complaining because we want a great forum that we fear
the new software in effect is taking away from us.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Dale, I appreciate you
taking the time to respond and hope this discussion can continue between you
and I, and others as well. </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Most respectfully yours,
</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Will</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<DIV class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A
href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org">pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</A> [<A
href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org?">mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</A>]
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Dale Probst<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, July 01, 2011 9:40
PM<BR><B>To:</B> <A
href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</A><BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[pianotech] [OT] Stuff Which Should Really Be on
PTG-L</SPAN></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Hello
Mr. Truitt,</SPAN></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I
think you are equating quantity with quality both in the statistics on
number of posts and on the larger audience here on pianotech. I suggested
moving it to ptg-l because that is what that list is for- discussion of PTG
policies and procedures. That list is limited to members who will have
opportunity to change things at Council. Discussing it here is contrary to
the stated purpose of this list which should be about piano
technology. You are free to disagree but if you want to implement
changes in PTG, I suggest that you follow the policies and procedures that
have been developed by the membership for implementing those changes. You
may get a lot of "attaboy" and "me too" here but unless those folks follow
up with their delegates to Council, this is as far as you will get.
</SPAN></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I
know I'm in the minority here, it's fine, been there before. I' started on
the list before it was even a list and was still on a bulletin board.
I've seen a lot of people come and go. I've didn't post much when I was on
the Board because I was reading the list from the archives and it was a
pain. So, I know what it feels like to be shut out from the list by software
I could not deal with. </SPAN></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Pianotech
as a community will exist no matter what the software is in vogue at the
time. People will come and go, things will change and some won't bother to
adapt. But if it's truly a valuable community, which I believe it is, it
will prosper no matter what inconveniences pop up. If you want to keep this
list stasis indefinitely all that is needed is a group of volunteers to
deal with administrations issues and a request for action to the board. But
be careful what you ask for, it's been relatively easy so far but then you
would be getting into real work. Work that Andy Rudoff, Ron Berry, Phil
Bondi, Kent Swafford, Dave Porritt, Brian Lawson, John Baird and others have
done on their own time for years without complaining. </SPAN></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">You
are putting the blame for the loss of community on the difficulty of using
the Higher Logic software. Just consider for a moment that the blame may
equally lie on the lack of substantial piano related topics on this list.
People will go where the content is, that's human nature. There have been
some decent discussions on the HL site and I hope to see more. And any of
you can go there and review them whenever you want. Or you can stay here and
do the work necessary to maintain this list. Or something else can happen.
But this community won't die because of a software issue. It will only die
if it becomes irrelevant to the people involved.</SPAN></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Mr.
Truitt, whether that happens would be up to you and the other members
of this community, no one or thing else.</SPAN></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Dale</SPAN></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">PS-
I didn't respond to your post earlier because I wanted to think about it
before I replied, sorry it wasn't on your timetable.</SPAN></DIV></DIV>
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