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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Can't you slide a hacksaw blade under the plate and
trim it?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>ES</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=dale@wardprobst.com href="mailto:dale@wardprobst.com">Dale Probst</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=pianotech@ptg.org
href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, July 02, 2011 2:19
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [pianotech] Dales hitch pin
clearance</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=328281018-02072011><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Hi
Dale,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=328281018-02072011><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=328281018-02072011><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>Sorry, here's the deal: hitch pin next to treble strut broke flush with
plate on second chip session. Drove the remnant through plate but there
is insufficient clearance between the bottom of the plate and the top of the
soundboard for the the remnant of the hitch pin to clear. I'd like to get that
remnant out with out pulling the plate if possible- piano is strung and
chipped. And ideas?</FONT></SPAN></DIV><SPAN class=328281018-02072011><FONT
face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>
<DIV><BR>DP</DIV>
<DIV></FONT></SPAN><FONT size=2>Dale Probst RPT</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT size=2>Registered Piano Technician</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT size=2>Ward & Probst, Inc.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT size=2><A
href="http://www.wardprobst.com/">www.wardprobst.com</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT size=2><A
href="mailto:dale@wardprobst.com">dale@wardprobst.com</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>
pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] <B>On Behalf Of
</B>Dale Erwin<BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, July 02, 2011 1:05 PM<BR><B>To:</B>
pianotech@ptg.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> [pianotech] Dales hitch pin
clearance<BR><BR></FONT></DIV><FONT
face="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, Serif" color=navy size=2><FONT
face="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, Serif" color=navy size=2>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="CLEAR: both"><FONT size=1><B><FONT
face="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, Serif" color=indigo>Dale S.
Erwin<BR>www.Erwinspiano.com<BR>209-577-8397</FONT></B></FONT><FONT
size=1><B><BR>209-985-0990</B><BR><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d"></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f497d"></SPAN><B><I><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black"></SPAN></I></B></FONT><FONT
face="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, Serif" color=navy size=1><I><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black"></SPAN></I></FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-STYLE: italic"><B><FONT size=1>Ronsen hammers/prep<BR>Sitka
Sound boards<BR>Belly packages</FONT></B></SPAN><TT><TT><BR><BR><FONT
size=2> Poor decisions are rarely made right by a greater commitment to
them.</FONT> <BR> <FONT size=2>"<B>David
Love</B>"</FONT></TT></TT><BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV> Hi Dale<BR> DO you mean bridge pins to the underside
e of the plate strut? Bold underlined is unclear<BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: arial,helvetica">-----Original
Message-----<BR>From: Dale Probst <dale@wardprobst.com><BR>To:
pianotech@ptg.org<BR>Sent: Sat, Jul 2, 2011 9:34 am<BR><SPAN
class=609191716-02072011><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2><BR></FONT></SPAN>
<DIV id=AOLMsgPart_2_72a7aa34-2293-4660-9bc9-383a0003b763>
<DIV><SPAN class=609191716-02072011><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=609191716-02072011><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>On
a piano related subject- hitch pins from a 1911 O Steinway are drilled
at angle but there is not enough room for the <U><B>remnant to clear between
the newly </B><B>finished plate and soundboard</B></U>. Don't ask me
how I found this out, just tell me it will all work
out.....</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=609191716-02072011><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=609191716-02072011><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>Best,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=609191716-02072011><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>Dale</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=609191716-02072011>
<DIV align=left><FONT size=2>Dale Probst RPT</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT size=2>Registered Piano Technician</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT size=2>Ward & Probst, Inc.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT size=2><A href="http://www.wardprobst.com/"
target=_blank>www.wardprobst.com</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT size=2><A
href="mailto:dale@wardprobst.com">dale@wardprobst.com</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> <A
href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org">pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</A> [<A
href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org?">mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</A>]
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Encore Pianos<BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, July 02, 2011
10:55 AM<BR><B>To:</B> <A
href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</A><BR><B>Subject:</B>
Re: [pianotech] [OT] Stuff Which Should Really Be on
PTG-L<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=WordSection1>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">It’s great to continue the
discussion in this spirit. I am finding out that we have more areas
of common ground than I previously thought. And I understand what
you are trying to say better because you have worked to clarify it.
Thank you. I hope I have been able to do the same for you.
Good communication is hard work sometimes, isn’t it? It is good to
hear that several board members are open to going in another direction if
HL finally proves to be inadequate. I know that part of my fear was
that everything was a done deal and we were going to be stuck with
something that does not serve us well and ultimately pulls us down.
</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">I think we are in
agreement that we should move forward from the old list. If we can
find the right program, I believe most people would migrate without too
much complaining, and we could all move to better things.
</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Tell me if you think this
is reasonable:</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV class=MsoListParagraph
style="TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><SPAN style="mso-list: Ignore">1.<SPAN
style="FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'">
</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Keep the old list going a
bit longer <I>in the near term</I> just as we are doing now.
</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoListParagraph
style="TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><SPAN style="mso-list: Ignore">2.<SPAN
style="FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'">
</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Compile a comprehensive
list of problems, bugs, complaints with the HL e-mail server (no doubt you
are doing this already) and have our agent (Phil Bondi?) go at it with HL
and establish where we are at now, what can be fixed and when, and where
we are going to end up at the end of that. Report back to the
committee. (It would be great if he has enough time to do this
before council so that it could be part of the discussion). At which
point, ask ourselves if that is enough, or do we need to explore
other options to best serve PTG and the list.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoListParagraph
style="TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><SPAN style="mso-list: Ignore">3.<SPAN
style="FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'">
</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Concurrently, have some
person(s) begin exploring other options for an e-mail server that we could
agree would be better than the old list or HL. If HL proves to be
more workable than it is now, then it would be academic. But we
would have other things to compare it with, and if it proves that we need
to move to something else, we have a head start and a better
perspective.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">I understand the
desirability of have an e-mail server that integrates with Member Max and
why that should be part of the decision as to what to use. But is it
a deal breaker if we can find a great e-mail server that does not
integrate with Member Max? Particulary if our projections of the
workability of HL are not encouraging? I hope that will not be the
tipping point when making a choice between HL and something else.
</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Fruit only, no
cabbages? </SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Wingdings">J</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Will</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV class=MsoListParagraph><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<DIV class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> <A
href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org">pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</A> [<A
href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org?">mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</A>]
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Dale Probst<BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, July 02, 2011
10:41 AM<BR><B>To:</B> <A
href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</A><BR><B>Subject:</B>
Re: [pianotech] [OT] Stuff Which Should Really Be on
PTG-L</SPAN></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: blue">Hi Will,</SPAN></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: blue">One last clarification- I
didn't say I</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">
"</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> believe that the Higher Logic program
is sufficient to meet our needs and encourage large participation by the
membership</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: blue">". As far as I'm concerned that
is yet to be proven. I am open to other programs and have been assured by
several board members that if we can't get HL to work for us we will go
another direction. I am on several woodworking forums: Woodnet,
Sawmill Creek and BT3Central are the ones I monitor regularly. They mostly
use VBulletin which is a pretty good package. But it doesn't do any of the
other things that HL does by integrating with our Member Max database.
It's an email handler and that's it. </SPAN></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: blue">As usual, when you really
dig into issues, there is more to it than appears on the surface. When
your issue is your only concern you are apt to miss parts of the larger
picture and that applies to me also. What I've been trying to point out is
that if you want more posts on this list serve, the best way I know to
encourage that is to post piano related content and volunteer to do the
work necessary to keep the creaky old Mailman software going. You do have
the option of doing that on HL also which is something we didn't have
before. You can do one or the other or both. I think that is a good thing
but as I said before, I'm used to being in the minority.
</SPAN></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: blue">Thanks for the good luck
and I only wish we could have a beverage together in KC, I'm better in
person than on email....at least I think I am 8~}</SPAN></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: blue">I'll be at the Pianotech
Live meeting for any of you who wish to throw fruit, I prefer softer
varieties.</SPAN></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: blue">Dale</SPAN></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Dale Probst
RPT</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Registered Piano
Technician</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Ward & Probst,
Inc.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><A
href="http://www.wardprobst.com/"
target=_blank>www.wardprobst.com</A></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><A
href="mailto:dale@wardprobst.com">dale@wardprobst.com</A></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal> </DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in">
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">-----Original
Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> <A
href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org">pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</A>
[<A
href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org?">mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</A>]
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Encore Pianos<BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, July 02,
2011 8:16 AM<BR><B>To:</B> <A
href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</A><BR><B>Subject:</B>
Re: [pianotech] [OT] Stuff Which Should Really Be on PTG-L</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Hi Dale:</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Thanks for your further
clarification about the purpose of ptg-l. I did misunderstand what
you were trying to say in your earlier post. Patrick Draine was
kind enough to contact me privately and correct my
misunderstanding. </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">I don’t want to keep
making the same points over and over, nor do I think you do
either. We both have pretty much presented our case.
</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Given the content of the
discussion we have had about the Higher Logic program I think it would
be very timely and useful for Phil Bondi to write a post to both forums
where he updates us on his interaction with the folks at HL, and
progress on the problems with the program that so many have
experienced. Regardless of where we sit on the issue, it would be
to everyone’s benefit to know more about what is going on.
</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">I am all for having a
better software system to manage the Pianotech Forum.
Really. The old format is long in the tooth and has its own set of
foibles, as we all know. Call me naïve, but I can’t help believe
that there is something out there that is much better at doing this than
the Higher Logic program. And affordable. No one would be
happier than I to find a program that is better than the Higher Logic
program and the old format, and that allows us to do more. Where
you and I fundamentally disagree is that you believe that the Higher
Logic program is sufficient to meet our needs and encourage large
participation by the membership, and I say no on both accounts.
</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Good luck with your
class, and enjoy yourself in KC.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Will</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<DIV class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> <A
href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org">pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</A>
[<A
href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org?">mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</A>]
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Dale Probst<BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, July 02, 2011
8:16 AM<BR><B>To:</B> <A
href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</A><BR><B>Subject:</B>
Re: [pianotech] [OT] Stuff Which Should Really Be on
PTG-L</SPAN></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Hi
Will,</SPAN></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">I'm
going to try once more to explain. PTG-L is NOT limited to Council
delegates it is open to every member of PTG. It was set up for
discussion of membership issues such as dissatisfaction with Higher
Logic, doubling dues, instructor reimbursement, what ever. I realize
that there are non members and former members on the list and yes their
concerns are important too. But the members will decide what happens
with the organization because they pay the freight with their dues and
volunteer contributions. </SPAN></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Second
point- technicians will go where the content is- period. I'll concede
that they will can be dissuaded by the difficulties of using software.
I'm no computer whiz but I have had very few problems accessing the
discussions on Higher Logic. I do it from my home computer and it does
what I need. Would I like to see improvements? You bet and I've
submitted my punch list to my RVP and Phil Bondi. My point is very
simple- if you want this list to continue you and all people who agree
with you need to submit technical posts to list and volunteer to
maintain it. We are using an old version of mailman and spam and virus
protection is a real problem. It requires admins to go through the grey
lists and forward posts that are held up by the anti spam/virus software
we use.</SPAN></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Third
point- list access will change over time. As I said, I used to access it
via a bulletin board, then in real time and finally through the
archives. As a sitting officer on the Board, I was reading every list-
PTG had 66 of them at the time. The volume of off topic and me too
posts on pianotech made it impractical for me to continue in real time.
If I had not adapted to a less than perfect method of reading pianotech
I would have lost out on the discussion. So I adapted.
</SPAN></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Fourth,
you can blame HL for the loss of community but HL did not change
anything on this list. It only gave those of us who needed another way
of participating an option. If you don't want to change over, don't.
Sign up to maintain this list and send all the posts you want here. I'm
good with that. Just don't blame the other site for reducing
participation here. Nothing has changed here. </SPAN></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">I
hope that explains my position adequately and apologize for my inability
to communicate better. I'm trying to get a rebuild out before I leave
for KC and have class presentations to polish. Not to mention that
I'll be a delegate for my chapter. That's why I'm participating here but
I still believe we should be on ptg-l where more delegates would see the
discussion.</SPAN></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Adios,</SPAN></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">DP</SPAN></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Dale
Probst RPT</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Registered
Piano Technician</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Ward
& Probst, Inc.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><A
href="http://www.wardprobst.com/"
target=_blank>www.wardprobst.com</A></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><A
href="mailto:dale@wardprobst.com">dale@wardprobst.com</A></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"></SPAN> </DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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<DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">-----Original
Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> <A
href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org">pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</A>
[<A
href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org?">mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</A>]
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Encore Pianos<BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, July 02,
2011 5:45 AM<BR><B>To:</B> <A
href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</A><BR><B>Subject:</B>
Re: [pianotech] [OT] Stuff Which Should Really Be on
PTG-L</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Hi Dale:</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">May I call you
Dale? Please call me Will. </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">I wasn’t making any
statement comparing quantity and quality by sharing the statistics
that I garnered from the archives. I didn’t have time to reread
5000 messages in the time period quoted and compile content lists
piano and non-piano. Even surveying the subject titles and doing
that would not be accurate, as we both know how the subject can change
from one thing to another (both piano and non piano related), yet the
title remains the same. That has been a problem of message
discipline for years and will likely not change no matter what the
format for e-mail server.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">But my point about the
decline in participation still stands, I think. The reason for
that is that the statistics I quoted reflect both Pianotech Lists, the
old and the new. And the very significant drop coincides with
the implementation of the new forum software. Further, the
overwhelming number of comments by List participants in the last few
days – where they are articulating their concerns and feelings –
support the contention that decline in participation is in response to
the inadequacies of the new system. </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">I
suggested moving it to ptg-l because that is what that list is for-
discussion of PTG policies and procedures. That list is limited
to members who will have opportunity to change things at Council.
Discussing it here is contrary to the stated purpose of this list
which should be about piano technology.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">On the one hand, I
understand your point about topic segregation and what the various
lists are for. In and of itself, that is not a bad thing and may
be useful to help manage the list topics better. I am not
unsympathetic to that aspect of it. But, like subject headings
and message content, it is subject to the vagaries of member
self-discipline as compliance is voluntary. Some will bother and
some wont. That’s just the way it is.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">I find the second
sentence quoted above telling. You want me to have this
discussion on ptg-l. But ptg-l is limited to council delegates,
as you state here. Since I am not a council delegate, I cannot
have this discussion on ptg-l. But I cannot have it on Pianotech
either, since that is for piano related topics only. The logic
of your argument then, is that there is no forum for my voice.
Nor, more tellingly, for the hundreds?of messages in the last few
days, no voice either, since most of them are likely not council
delegates. The net effect of our voluntary compliance with your
dictum is that we should swallow our widespread dissent and shut
up.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">I am troubled by some
of your characterizations about what software is in vogue at the time,
and people wanting to adapt. As if our complaints are based on
mere personal preference and we are too lazy to adapt to new ways of
doing things. When things change, we should make the effort to
adapt. But I think you are barking up the wrong tree.
</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">The key here is that
the Pianotech Forum is based entirely on voluntary participation and
compliance. If you want us to do things in a certain way –
meaning those of you who will effect changes related to this forum –
then you have the task of persuading us to do things in a new way,
since I do not believe you want the forum to be used by only 10
members instead of 1000. And certainly one of the strongest
measures of success would be how widely the Pianotech Forum is used by
members. That means that those encharged with the
responsibilities of finding and implementing new software should
be looking for something that the members will like and want to
use. That’s not an easy task, as you are going to have to
second guess what we will want to do. That said, some things
will bring about a greater chance of success. </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">The interface is where
it all starts. Ideally, the software would be easy to use,
consistent, reliable, and not buggy. Good interface design
allows you to get from here to there in the fewest possible steps,
when we are talking about the basic functions that all of us are going
to do most of the time. There should be a consistent internal
logic that makes usage seem easy and intuitive. The more you
have to use Help to navigate a program, the less successful its design
is. And the fewer your chances are for widespread adoption by a
membership that will have to be persuaded that it is worth
bothering.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">The Higher Logic
program throws up roadblocks at the most basic levels of
functionality. It’s a damn pain in the ass to use, it’s poorly
designed, and has too many bugs – particularly for a program that
should be mature and stable by now. And, acknowledge this
or not, too many people have voted with their feet and ended or
greatly reduced their participation in the forum. By that
measure, it’s a failure. But don’t blame the victims.
</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Yes, I am blaming the
loss of community on the difficulty of using the Higher Logic
Software. If I were only one voice, that would make my dissent
insignificant. But, change a few details, so have said the vast
majority of respondents in the last few days. We are merely
reflecting a very real problem with bad software, and we are
complaining because we want a great forum that we fear the new
software in effect is taking away from us.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Dale, I
appreciate you taking the time to respond and hope this discussion can
continue between you and I, and others as well. </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Most respectfully
yours, </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Will</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<DIV class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> <A
href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org">pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</A>
[<A
href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org?">mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</A>]
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Dale Probst<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, July 01, 2011
9:40 PM<BR><B>To:</B> <A
href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</A><BR><B>Subject:</B>
Re: [pianotech] [OT] Stuff Which Should Really Be on
PTG-L</SPAN></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Hello
Mr. Truitt,</SPAN></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">I
think you are equating quantity with quality both in the statistics on
number of posts and on the larger audience here on pianotech. I
suggested moving it to ptg-l because that is what that list is for-
discussion of PTG policies and procedures. That list is limited
to members who will have opportunity to change things at Council.
Discussing it here is contrary to the stated purpose of this list
which should be about piano technology. You are free to disagree
but if you want to implement changes in PTG, I suggest that you follow
the policies and procedures that have been developed by the membership
for implementing those changes. You may get a lot of "attaboy" and "me
too" here but unless those folks follow up with their delegates to
Council, this is as far as you will get. </SPAN></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">I
know I'm in the minority here, it's fine, been there before. I'
started on the list before it was even a list and was still on a
bulletin board. I've seen a lot of people come and go. I've didn't
post much when I was on the Board because I was reading the list from
the archives and it was a pain. So, I know what it feels like to be
shut out from the list by software I could not deal with.
</SPAN></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Pianotech
as a community will exist no matter what the software is in vogue at
the time. People will come and go, things will change and some won't
bother to adapt. But if it's truly a valuable community, which I
believe it is, it will prosper no matter what inconveniences pop up.
If you want to keep this list stasis indefinitely all that is
needed is a group of volunteers to deal with administrations issues
and a request for action to the board. But be careful what you ask
for, it's been relatively easy so far but then you would be getting
into real work. Work that Andy Rudoff, Ron Berry, Phil Bondi, Kent
Swafford, Dave Porritt, Brian Lawson, John Baird and others have done
on their own time for years without complaining. </SPAN></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">You
are putting the blame for the loss of community on the difficulty of
using the Higher Logic software. Just consider for a moment that the
blame may equally lie on the lack of substantial piano related topics
on this list. People will go where the content is, that's human
nature. There have been some decent discussions on the HL site and I
hope to see more. And any of you can go there and review them whenever
you want. Or you can stay here and do the work necessary to maintain
this list. Or something else can happen. But this community won't die
because of a software issue. It will only die if it becomes irrelevant
to the people involved.</SPAN></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Mr.
Truitt, whether that happens would be up to you and the other
members of this community, no one or
thing else.</SPAN></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Dale</SPAN></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">PS-
I didn't respond to your post earlier because I wanted to think about
it before I replied, sorry it wasn't on your
timetable.</SPAN></DIV></DIV>
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