<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><head><meta http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"><meta name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 14 (filtered medium)"><style></style></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1>OK. Just a couple of comments:<o:p></o:p><o:p> </o:p>1) Scale Ripper is actually quite a good program. It is simple to use and it’s free. It is good for giving one an overall view of what kind of scaling they are looking at. I still prefer my own system (evolved from Lotus 123 and now in Excel) but that’s probably because I’m also a not-quite-so-old geezer and I’m some set in my ways. I’m sure Scalemaster will also work; let’s face it, if Joe can figure it out…. Most of the commercially available scaling programs are based on the formulas found in Dave Robert’s book, The Calculating Technician. (which was based on his Journal articles) and/or those developed and taught by Al Sanderson lo, these many years back. Indeed, you can develop your own program in Excel (or, if your cheap, the spreadsheet found in OpenOffice). <o:p></o:p><o:p> </o:p>None of these programs will take the place of experience and knowledge. Whatever scaling tools you end up using I agree with Joe (and others): if you’re going to be rebuilding pianos these days you really need to have an understanding of stringing scales. At least enough to understand cause and effect—you should understand that this sound is the result of this scaling characteristic and not leave until the piano is all back together and you find that it still has that nasal sound at the crossover. Today’s piano owner deserves better.<o:p></o:p><o:p> </o:p>2a) Yes you can use Scale Ripper to create new wrapped string scaling but you damn well better understand the principles of good wrapped string scaling first. All any program—Scale Ripper or whatever—will do is give you a result; it will not tell you if that result is any good or not. For this you need knowledge and experience. The knowledge you can get by reading and by attending the appropriate conference/convention classes, the experience you get by doing. If you’re new to this and find it some confusing, don’t despair. Find yourself a mentor who has already devoted the blood, sweat and tears to help you. Be prepared to pay for the privilege of learning from him/her.<o:p></o:p><o:p> </o:p>2b) Joe wrote, “That is the most important part of piano scaling, (the bass). It lays the foundation for everything else. Most techs think the plain wire is the most important, but I've found that it is almost inconsequential. I've change wire sizes, up to 3 sizes one way or the other and there was little or no change in tonal quality. There was a bit of volume lost/gained, but that was difficult to perceive.” To which I say, “Poppycock.” And I’ve demonstrated the acoustical differences between scaling tensions on my dual mono-chord in several different conference/convention classes. The differences in timbre coming from two otherwise identical unisons but with a whole wire size difference in diameter are clearly audible. The differences between two otherwise identical unisons but with one-half size are more difficult to pick out. The tenor treble scaling scheme—and its relationship to the soundboard assembly forms the basis for the tone map of the piano. This is where it starts. I am not an advocate of changing the original tenor/treble scaling scheme appreciably—other than smoothing it out and cleaning it up—but it is important to understand what you have to work with before you start tossing numbers into the bass scale. A Sohmer with an average tension of 200 lbs plus through the tenor section is going to require a somewhat different bass scale than will a Steinway with an average tension of 160 lbs through the tenor section. (An exception to making wholesale changes to a tenor/treble scale would be to lower the whole thing appreciably—being sure to match the design of the soundboard assembly to the new scaling—for a client who wants that particular timbre that can only be created by a low-tension scale/light, flexible soundboard combination. I will never increase the overall tension load of an existing scale.)<o:p></o:p><o:p> </o:p>3 & 4) Mostly as Joe says….<o:p></o:p><o:p> </o:p>ddf<o:p></o:p><o:p> </o:p><div>Delwin D Fandrich<o:p></o:p>Piano Design & Fabrication<o:p></o:p>6939 Foothill Court SW, Olympia, Washington 98512 USA<o:p></o:p>Phone  360.515.0119 — Cell  360.388.6525<o:p></o:p><a href="mailto:del@fandrichpiano.com">del@fandrichpiano.com </a>— <a href="mailto:ddfandrich@gmail.com">ddfandrich@gmail.com</a><o:p></o:p></div><o:p> </o:p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'>From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On Behalf Of Joseph Garrett Sent: Monday, September 26, 2011 2:43 PM To: pianotech Subject: [pianotech] FW: RE: Piano Scales<o:p></o:p></div></div><o:p> </o:p><div><div>I'm forwarding this, because this is what you get when you take a postitive attitude re. my neverending rants.<G><o:p></o:p></div><div>I realize I have offended a couple of people. To that I apologize. (Leave it to David Love to bring me up short and put me back in the real world. Thanks David.<G>) Please feel free to comment on any and all of this, if ya'll wish to. My hide is pretty thick, as most know...so....have at it.<o:p></o:p></div><div>Joe<o:p></o:p></div><div> <o:p></o:p></div><div><div>Joe Garrett, R.P.T.<o:p></o:p></div><div>Captain of the Tool Police<o:p></o:p></div><div>Squares R I<o:p></o:p></div><div> <o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div> <o:p></o:p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div>----- Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></div><div>From: <a href="mailto:joegarrett@earthlink.net" title="joegarrett@earthlink.net">Joseph Garrett</a> <o:p></o:p></div><div>To: <a href="mailto:rosemanpiano@gmail.com" title="rosemanpiano@gmail.com">Rex Roseman</a><o:p></o:p></div><div>Sent: 9/26/2011 8:05:46 AM <o:p></o:p></div><div>Subject: RE: Piano Scales<o:p></o:p></div><div><o:p> </o:p></div><div><div>Rex,<o:p></o:p></div><div>It really wasn't a "challenge", but a rant.<G> I applaud you willingness to delve into this important aspect of rebuilding! I will answer your questions below:<o:p></o:p></div><div> <o:p></o:p></div></div><div> <o:p></o:p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div>----- Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></div><div>From: <a href="mailto:rosemanpiano@gmail.com" title="rosemanpiano@gmail.com">Rex Roseman</a> <o:p></o:p></div><div>To: <a href="mailto:joegarrett@earthlink.net" title="joegarrett@earthlink.net">joegarrett@earthlink.net</a><o:p></o:p></div><div>Sent: 9/26/2011 6:50:27 AM <o:p></o:p></div><div>Subject: Piano Scales<o:p></o:p></div><div><o:p> </o:p></div>Joe<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p>I would like to take you up on your challenge to learn about rescaling pianos during rebuild (see the below clip from one of your last posts). In the past, I have always duplicated what was on the piano originally but I have a project piano that I am working on at this moment that I can take extra time and experiment on.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p>There are a couple questions that I would like to ask.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p><![if !supportLists]>1.      <![endif]>What is the best scale program to work with in your opinion? I have a copy of Scale Ripper. Is this all that I need? I have not heard of this program, but suspect it's like a lot of others that promise stressfree/unschooled/perfect scales every time. Would not use it for anything, unless there is a real person behind it that will give you counciling in it's makeup and use. (not to mention perameters to strive for. The program I use is Scalemaster, developed by Mark Gallant, Assoc., Portland Chapter. I am the Beta User/abuser of this program.<G> It has it's foibles, but can do the job with some time spent with it. Mark and I are readily available for help. <o:p></o:p><![if !supportLists]>2.      <![endif]>Do the bass strings need to have special scaling to deal with the core/wrap configuration or can I just use a program such as Scale Ripper? Again, NO on the "Scale Ripper" thang. For the first part, ...That is the most important part of piano scaling, (the bass). It lays the foundation for everything else. Most techs think the plain wire is the most important, but I've found that it is almost inconsequential. I've change wire sizes, up to 3 sizes one way or the other and there was little or no change in tonal quality. There was a bit of volume lost/gained, but that was difficult to percieve. <o:p></o:p><![if !supportLists]>3.      <![endif]>Who can you recommend for bass strings that can help in both the scaling and the making of the strings. I recommend: 1. J.D. Grandt, Piano Supplies/Strings, Canada, (address is in the ads in the back of the Journal). 2. James Arledge, in Nashville,Tennessee. (Check your Directory). There is a third string maker, I can recommend, who makes bass strings, but with a different type of copper. His strings tend to be a bit brighter: Ari Isaacs, Canada. <o:p></o:p><![if !supportLists]>4.      <![endif]>Are there other questions that I should be asking as I get into this project? (Usually it is the questions that you don?t know to ask that come back to bite you.) The best thing I can recommend is to get a copy of "The Calculating Technician" from the Home Office. That is the foundation for all of this. However, keep an open mind in regards to Inharmonicity, Impedence (loudness) & Breaking Strengths. Every technician has his/her favorite "criteria". Personally, I tend to use the Imedence factor more than the Inharmonicity factor. As far as tensions go, try to maintain a balance and over-all total within the scheme of the piano. Every piano will have a "pattern" and you should look for it as being the Intent of the Designer. This I think is the most important factor. i.e. don't try to  make a Baldwin out of a Steinway or vice versa.<G> <o:p></o:p><![if !supportLists]>5.      <![endif]>I hope all this helps. Please feel free to contact me any time. <o:p></o:p><![if !supportLists]>6.      <![endif]>Joe<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p>Thank you for your time and consideration.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p>Rex Roseman<o:p></o:p>330-289-2948<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p>>We have the ability to SCALE Pianos for the greatest overall improvement of sound, on an individual basis! And yet, none >of you techno-geeks seem willing to put forth the EFFORT to learn how to do this!<o:p></o:p></blockquote></blockquote></div></body></html>