<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:st1="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"> <head> <meta http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> <meta name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 11 (filtered medium)"> <base href="x-msg://31/"> <o:SmartTagType namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="PersonName"/>  <style>  </style> </head> <body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=blue style='word-wrap: break-word;-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space'> <div class=Section1> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Roger & Terry,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>(I am reposting Terry's response, along with Roger's, because Terry's did not post to the list.)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>  Thanks so much for taking time to respond to my posting, and for the wise words of counsel and caution.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I have done a moderate amount of rebuilding down through the years, including pinblocks and bridge work, but all of it<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>has been on pianos where the soundboard was not a problem.  I am thinking I have run into my first such issue.  <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>  The poor condition of the strings and hammers make tonal evaluation a challenge, but the tenor and treble seem adequate in both<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>volume and sustain.  The bass is much weaker in both ways.  Checking bridges and ribs for resonance and decay time with a tuning fork <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>gives what seems to me to be acceptable results.  <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>  The poor tone in the bass could be caused by the old strings or a bridge problem.  What I can see of the bass bridge looks solid, but the<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>apron/riser & riser/soundboard glue joints are hidden under the plate.  I am hesitant to tear things down for further inspection, because if a <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>soundboard replacement is needed and the customer wants it, I will have to job that out or send the entire project to another shop.  I want to <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>learn to do soundboard work, but I think my first project needs to be on an old Wurlitzer I have rather than a customer's piano.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>   The piano is a family "heirloom," being fixed up to be passed on to a daughter, so her 5 year old can begin lessons.  I think I need to get the piano <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>owner in my shop, discuss the entire situation with her, then proceed with caution.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>   Thanks again for the helpful responses. I'm certain that they have also been of benefit to those on the list, and my musings may have at least <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>provided some entertainment.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Best regards,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Claude Harding<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>    <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <div> <div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> <hr size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1> </span></font></div> <p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> Terry Farrell [mailto:mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com] <br> <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Friday, December 30, 2011 5:45 AM<br> <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName w:st="on">charding88@comcast.net</st1:PersonName><br> <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [pianotech] Soundboard problem?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size: 12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <div> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size: 12.0pt'>Hello Claude,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size: 12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size: 12.0pt'>I am responding directly to you (not on Pianotech) because I can't post to the list (technical glitch I guess). If you'd like to post this to the Pianotech list, please do so.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size: 12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size: 12.0pt'>I agree with what Roger has stated - good advice. I would go some further though. What you have done is to gather some good info. You at least know for sure that the board is distorted at the low bass end. Okay, that's great. But what of it?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size: 12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size: 12.0pt'>I would start with answering two big-picture questions: First is how does the piano sound? Is there a killer octave area? How is overall volume and sustain (in bass, trying to take into consideration the condition of the strings themselves)? The second question you need to address is exactly what level of performance is the owner looking for - i.e. what is the finished product objective in rebuilding/refurbishing/remanufacturing the piano? As an extreme example, if the owner doesn't play well (beginner), and has in the past been very happy with the sound of her/his worn-out 1948 Gulbranson spinet - but simply wants a grand piano in the living room, it may not matter much the condition of the soundboard. However, at the other end of the scale, the family pianist is advanced, has a good ear, and knows what a very nice piano sounds like and wants this piano to sound as good as it can - I can tell you right off without even seeing the piano that the only way this piano will ever reach its highest level of performance is with a new, redesigned soundboard and string scale.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size: 12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size: 12.0pt'>Then, if you determine that the soundboard is lacking somehow AND the owner wants it to sound better, then start using your numbers to confirm your suspicions.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size: 12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size: 12.0pt'>AND, IMHO, if the owner simply wants a nice sounding little grand piano, once you start adding up the cost of a new action, soundboard, etc., etc., I think it is always appropriate to cover the option of replacing the piano with a good late-model used piano - that is often a cost-effective route for people. However, if they really want THIS piano (family heirloom, etc.), OR if they really want a 5-foot grand that sounds better than any new 5-foot grand, then by all means go for the Full Monty!<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size: 12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size: 12.0pt'>I hope this helps some....<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size: 12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size: 12.0pt'>Terry Farrell<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size: 12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> </div> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size: 12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <div> <div> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size: 12.0pt'>On Dec 30, 2011, at 12:30 AM, <a href="mailto:Roger@Integra.net">Roger@Integra.net</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size: 12.0pt'><br> <br> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <div vlink=purple link=blue> <div> <div> <div> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div style='margin-bottom:10.0pt'> <p class=MsoNormal style='line-height:13.0pt'><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div style='margin-bottom:10.0pt'> <p class=MsoNormal style='line-height:13.0pt'><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div style='margin-bottom:10.0pt'> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> </div> <p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:10.0pt'><font size=4 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'>Claude,</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:10.0pt'><font size=4 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'>Your clinical analysts of the soundboard suggest you may be relying too much on correcting downbearing to exact your expectations. Certainly downbearing is an important ingredient, but ignoring other soundboard principles may point to a limited and possibly disappointing outcome. Your letter makes little mention of the overall tonal characteristics of the soundboard. Experienced technicians will listen to the overall quality of tone to indicate if there is a potential problem with crown and other factors.</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:10.0pt'><font size=4 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'>One of the principle ingredients of the piano sound is created by the tension between the ribs and the soundboard panels – which manifests itself through crown. Your description suggests this may be lacking. If so, all the kings horses and all the kings men will not restore this piano to the potential, commensurate to the money your customer will be paying for restoration.</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:10.0pt'><font size=4 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'>Use extreme caution, lest you damage your reputation.</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:10.0pt'><font size=4 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'>Roger Gable</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:10.0pt'><font size=4 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'>P.S. Your suggestion to add material to the bridge to correct downbearing will likely gain you nothing but increased downbearing without any (or possibly negative) tonal benefits.</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <div> <div> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <div style='background-image:initial;background-attachment:initial;background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat: initial initial'> <div> <p class=MsoNormal style='background:whitesmoke'><b><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black; font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></font></b><span class=apple-converted-space><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma; color:black'> </span></font></span><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black'>Thursday, December 29, 2011 6:06 PM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=MsoNormal style='background:whitesmoke'><b><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black; font-weight:bold'>To:</span></font></b><span class=apple-converted-space><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma; color:black'> </span></font></span><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black'><a href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org" title="pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=MsoNormal style='background:whitesmoke'><b><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black; font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></font></b><span class=apple-converted-space><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma; color:black'> </span></font></span><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black'>[pianotech] Soundboard problem?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> </div> </div> <div> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> </div> <div> <div> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><u1:p></u1:p> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><u1:p></u1:p> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>  I have a 1925 Lyon & Healy (5 ft.) grand in the shop.  I have done a preliminary estimate on restringing, new hammers, action reconditioning, etc., but I do not yet have a signed contract with the specifics spelled out.<u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>  I have been doing some closer inspection of the piano, have concerns about the<u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>soundboard, and could use some counsel. <u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>  The strings are still on, and composite downbearing readings (Fowler guage) from the top note run<u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>.004" - .010" in Treble 2;<u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>.006" - .009" in Treble 1;<u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>.010" - .009" in Tenor.<u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>  These seem minimal, especially in the top treble, and I will check again after taking off the strings to see how much the board might come up, but maybe I can work with these, especially since I may have to recap the top end of the treble bridge anyway.<u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><u1:p></u1:p> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>  The bass is the main problem.<u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Top note (28) reads .010".  (That's okay.)<u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Middle of bridge is .006", and it ranges .004" - .007" through note 4.<u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>THEN, #3 is .000", #2 is -.001", and #1 is -.003".<u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><u1:p></u1:p> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Inspecting board underneath shows all glue joints solid and at least minimal crown except for the low end of the bass bridge.   A straight edge will rock at that point directly beside the lowest soundboard button for the bass bridge apron, although there is clearance and "crown" on either side of that spot.<u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>   Tone in bass is not strong; bass bridge is offset construction; clearance between plate and soundboard at plate screw/post locations is minimal (1/8").<u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Perhaps I could re-cap the bass bridge to correct downbearing.  Could I save this board, and should I even try.  My preliminary estimate did not mention replacing the soundboard and was based on a home inspection in a crowded room where getting under the piano was difficult (That's my best excuse.<span class=apple-converted-space> </span></span></font><font color=black face=Wingdings><span style='font-family:Wingdings;color:black'>J</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'>)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <u1:p></u1:p></div> <div> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>  Counsel welcomed.  Criticism accepted.<u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Thanks.<u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Claude Harding<u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> <u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><u1:p></u1:p> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size: 12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> </div> </body> </html>