<html> <body> So who'se most egregiously responsible for this first-lather-of-the-year?  Blaming Jim Bryant is too easy but would certainly be enjoyable.  My vote, however, would go to Horace, who not only cowardly attempts to shift the blame for his utterly failed effort to  lighten the mood to the inadequacies of email as an effective form of communication, but then attempts to use that self-same medium to convey ideas which would clearly be better absorbed by our average reader in a format akin to American Splendor. But really, here's the deal: There are a couple of issues embedded within this thread. Unlike the web-based format, which attempts to restrict each forum to a narrow focus, this list is, for the most part, subject-inclusive, with the exception of OT (discouraged), issues clearly unique to institutional venues (CAUT), and PTG business (PTG-L)  While the web-based site has a list dedicated to issues regarding the site's own functionality, this list must exercise its metacognitivity in situ.  We share our pleasures and displeasures with each other and, on some level, we presume or hope, with those responsible for its maintenance.  It would be perfectly reasonable to grouse to, and about them, normally. however, this relationship is complicated in that these administrators also serve in a official capacity in the PTG organization.  The confusion derives from our own perceptions of the 'ownership' and mission of this list, as Horace alluded to. This list originated and persisted for many years outside the purview of PTG, although  likely most of its pioneers were guild members.  It has been hosted by a number of venues before alighting @ptg.org.  To my knowledge, there was never a tiered level of participation, distinguishing between members and non-members. If I am correct about this, then all this stuff about non-members not having an equal right to voice an opinion about the way the list functions is bogus. The rub, so to speak, is the indistinctness of the line between what is list business and what is PTG business.  This obfuscation is not new...we have engaged in it for years, and we continue to do so.   This thread was walking the line until, I regret to say, Ryan stepped unmistakably over it in expressing opinions that related specifically to the politics of the organization.  From that point on, there were a number of sub-threads: Technical pros/cons of old vs. new list Conjecture on the organizational dynamics and their impact on how the list communication issues will be addressed What this list is and who has what rights? Membership in PTG - obligation? benifits? And then, there's Duaine. Whatever justification there may be for the animosity that has accrued over the years, to the newer, objective reader, the stuff that gets directed at him is nothing but nasty.  Admittedly, Duaine brought this upon himself for his "horse-wipped" comment, which, while expressing some of the frustration shared by many of the list members, managed still to err in two significant ways: 1) In the charged political climate this country has been and is currently experiencing,  the comment was much too close in tone to those like Rick Perry's,  about Ben Bernanke "...we would treat him pretty ugly down in Texas". 2) It is inappropriate for a non-guild member to comment on the organizational politics, HOWEVER, we had already blurred the line but discussing membership or Board issues on this list.  That was also inappropriate.  If Clarence Thomas can't see the 'conflict of interest' lines, why should Duaine be able to? His next post was also over the line, in its use of CAPS, which, in the context of email, is aggressive, and the use of 'wtf', which is yellow flag time. All of the rest of this aside, it seems like we need to do some 'intervention' to work out this 'Duaine' thing.  He may have some legitimate points mixed in with the seeming provocativeness.  They need to be worked out in the right way, in the right place.  For this sort of thing to persist de-legitimizes everything else we profess to honor about this list. See, I told you it was all Horace's fault. Cheers David Skolnik </body> </html>