Mr. SkolniK (sorry about the earlier misspelling!),<div><br></div><div>Interesting post. I'll chew on that for a while! </div><div><br></div><div>Ryan<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Jan 3, 2012 at 11:33 AM, David Skolnik <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:davidskolnik@optonline.net">davidskolnik@optonline.net</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<blockquote type="cite">David Skolnick
said:</blockquote><br><br>
Ryan -<br>
First, and most importantly, it's "nik" not
"nick".<br><br>
Next, as I mentioned in the unrelated private post, I was not
intending to chastise you with any more severity than Horace did.
We see how much trouble that caused for him. I disagree with
nothing you say below, for the most part, though I'm not sure it's fair
to attribute Jim B's decision to unsubscribe completely to the list
issues. There has been quite a bit posted recently saying that the
list was NOT being shut down immediately, and, in fact, Jim hasn't posted
(except for once, earlier this year) since early 2008, so we must
remember to be careful with our interpretation of data. <br><br>
With regard to political speech, I agree that it is difficult to discern
exactly where the line is, but it's important to remember that it does
exist, to wit: it's one thing to criticize, <i>strongly,</i> the
decisions and actions taken by the administrators (the committee, the
Board, the Home Office) <i><u>AS</u></i> administrators of the list
while, at the same time, keeping separate their functions as officers and
administrators of PTG. Think of it this way, perhaps.
Assuming that the basic infrastructure of this mail list were still
viable, what would prevent us from finding an alternate host? The
cost? Rights to the name "Pianotech"? Redundancy
with my.ptg lists? <br><br>
Also, if the inadequacies (in some peoples opinion) of the current
offering were actually remedied, would the continued existence of the two
"pianotech"s make sense? Is there something fundamentally
different in the originating mission of the two that is not easily
resolved? Open membership as opposed to membership closely tied to
PTG interaction? RonN made the same point, way back, on Dec. 31st.
<br><br>
As I said, there IS no dedicated list that this readership can redirect
to in order to discuss self-referential aspects of the list's
functioning. It all has to happen here, in one big room.
(Sounds like a caucus). The self-perpetuating irony, as you've
seen, is that, in order to engage in such discussion, we seem to be
herded to the website, and, even there, need to make the distinction
between what is "User Help Group", and what goes to
"PTG-L". For example, in your earlier post, where you
said:<br><br>
<blockquote type="cite">I think the problem is this
Board of Directors is too emotionally invested in the new and improved
product because they have spent so much time, energy, and (our)$$ on
it. The only hope would be to elect a new board who isn't so
invested in it.</blockquote><br>
The first sentence would be at home on the User Help list. The
second belonged on PTG-L. It may seem absurd, but one way of
unmasking it as such is to follow it through to the extreme. Send a
different version to each of the relevant lists. Is someone on
"Users" going to say, "No, we have nothing to do with the
old Pianotech? Not likely, but, if so, who does? As far as
anything going to PTG-L, the question( would be the boundaries of
discourse, even there, and how much representation this list has
there.<br><br>
This list can't just become defined by our reluctance to adapt (no, I'm
not talking about LC*) or about what a terrible person Duaine is. (Maybe
there would be a separate list on the website for that). The
question is, are the administrators of this list as responsible to any
question raised by Duaine (as a non-PTG'er) as they might be to me (as
soon as I pay my dues)? Is there less of a sense of responsibility,
as list administrators, to this list than the one on the web?<br><br>
Clearly, I'll do anything to avoid honest work.<br><br>
Keep celebrating -<br><font color="#888888">
David Skolnik<br>
Hastings on Hudson, NY<br>
*(Learning Curve)</font><div><div></div><div class="h5"><br><br>
<br><br>
<br>
At 12:37 PM 1/3/2012, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite">David Skolnick said: "The
rub, so to speak, is the indistinctness of the line between what is list
business and what is PTG business. This obfuscation is not new...we
have engaged in it for years, and we continue to do so. This
thread was walking the line until, I regret to say, Ryan stepped
unmistakably over it in expressing opinions that related specifically to
the politics of the organization."<br><br>
This thread was began with yet another contributor leaving the list
because they are completely unsatisfied with the very large change that
was dropped like a bomb on the list users last year, without any real
notice, feedback, or involvement from the heavy users. That was a
political decision that had some strong reprucussions for many in the
list community - and the large drop off in participation that followed
proved this.<br><br>
Mentioning anything relating to PTG politics on a non-PTG-L list
seems to be taboo. However, this list, if it survives, will only do so if
there is a certain amount of political will exerted. This thread is about
the survival of this list - which is ultimately a political decision.
Just because there is a dedicated political list, it doesn't follow that
any and all relevant political opinions in regards to a thread topic are
counter-productive. <br><br>
Ryan</blockquote></div></div></div>
<br>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br>Ryan Sowers, RPT<br>Puget Sound Chapter<br>Olympia, WA<br><a href="http://www.pianova.net">www.pianova.net</a><br>
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