<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 11:18 AM, Encore Pianos <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:encorepianos@metrocast.net">encorepianos@metrocast.net</a>></span> wrote:<br><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US"><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style>.....</span> </p></div></div></blockquote><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US"><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style>Readers, Nick and I had a phone conversation about these parts about a year and a half ago, where we shared our observations and solutions. Nick, did you end up repining the rep lever posts to a higher gram resistance reading? </span></p>
</div></div></blockquote><div><br>Yes, but not all of them (long story). Repining the lever posts made a noticeable improvement, but in my case I did not drill out / remove a cloth "pin" as you did, but rather had to drill out the small "plastic" pin then bush and pin the hole. The coil of the spring now fit snugly over the new cloth and pin This anchored the spring and added a secure stability to both free ends of the spring. No slippage.<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style>I am in agreement with your observation about the zone of adjustment acceptability being narrower than with wooden parts, although I would say that it likely has less to do with wood than other design considerations. </span></p>
</div></div></blockquote><div><br>Yes.<br> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US"><div><p class="MsoNormal">
<span style>The zone of adjustment acceptability in general is narrow with these parts. Within those parameters, the parts can function quite well, outside that you start to have problems. Other good techs whom I know who have used these parts also have come to this conclusion. </span></p>
</div></div></blockquote><div><br>Yes.<br> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US"><div><p class="MsoNormal">
<span style><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style>It is interesting to hear about the success of your shortening of the rep lever half of the top spring, I knew you were planning on doing this but did not know how it worked out.</span></p>
</div></div></blockquote><div><br>It definitely helped in both performance and regulation-ability. But the bend in the rep spring half (either before of after shortening) is not as pronounced as in wood parts, being rather flat. This made tool use a bit less comfortable. But all in all the bushed post and shorter top spring made a noticeable and positive difference. A lighter gage wire would help by at least allowing for a more pronounced and graceful upper bend as well as open up the zone of adjustment acceptability and improved tool feel, but would not necessarily kick the jack in the butt (couldn't resist:) with any more power.<br>
</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US"><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style> If I had thought to do this back then, I would have done this at the same time I had the springs out to increase the size of the barrel. While I do not have the direct experience of success that Nick has, I had my head buried long enough with the problems with these springs to believe that this is worth doing. </span></p>
</div></div></blockquote><div><br>Yes, though I wonder if replacing the springs with lighter gage all around (supply house springs?) would be a good idea rather than fighting with that "piano wire" spring.<br> </div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style>For Ed Foote, I would make all my decisions about what modifications may be necessary to improve and optimize the performance of these parts and take the whips off the rails once and do them all at the same time. It’s a lot less time doing them all at once, than finding out you need to do each thing, one at a time. I spent a lot more time going backwards before I could go forward. </span></p>
</div></div></blockquote><div><br>Same here. I tried repining the jack; bought the expensive repining kit (comes with instructions). This kit is not what we are used to and the procedures are tricky, though with practice I'm sure a modicum of proficiency would be had. The "pins" are needle bearing (nice idea) and the increments change almost microscopically. <br>
<br>So, as to the sluggish jacks. I would check the interface of the spring insertion into the back of the jack activating hole. Is the engagement length a bit too long. Is the angle of the entrance of the lower spring as it approaches the jack heel to shallow or too steep. If too shallow bend it to a more pronounced curve and readjust the spring for hammer rise. WNG and Bruce Clark have a spec for jack grams movement; you may have to bend the rules and pin it with less friction. This would mean, of course, gaining a proficiency in the one task of removing all jack pins and repining same. Try one, say note 88, and see what happens.<br>
<br>Nick <br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US"><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> <a href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org" target="_blank">pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org" target="_blank">pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Nicholas Gravagne<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, January 19, 2012 11:50 AM</span></p><div class="im"><br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org" target="_blank">pianotech@ptg.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [pianotech] WNG jack don't come back no more, no more, no more.....<u></u><u></u></div>
<p></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><u></u> <u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 8:44 AM, Encore Pianos <<a href="mailto:encorepianos@metrocast.net" target="_blank">encorepianos@metrocast.net</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>Will writes:<u></u><u></u></p><div><div class="h5"><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Combine the too heavy gauge of wire for the hammers with rep springs where the coil flops around on a too small barrel (.050 difference) along with a jack top that is visibly smaller in width and length than other comparable grand jacks (the WNG jack is, and that means that the top of the jack is carrying a much higher load than a comparable jack, <u></u><u></u></p>
</div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><br>Will -- a bit of nitpicking here, but the load has not changed; what has changed is the intensity of the force (higher) and friction owing to the smaller carrying surface area of the jack top. Your argument still theoretically holds, however.<br>
<br>... <u></u><u></u></p></div><blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in"><div><div><p>My solution to these too heavy guage rep springs was to repin the rep lever posts at about 10 grams to slow the karate chop kicks of the hammer from the springs so that you would get a much slower and controlled rise. The too heavy springs make the adjustments hypersensitive and a giant pain in the ass to regulate. <u></u><u></u></p>
</div></div></blockquote><div><p class="MsoNormal"><br>Whether the rep spring wire gage is heavy or lighter, the same force from either will be required to raise the hammer in the manner that most of us agree on and with a concomitant and beneficial effect to the jack behavior as well. "Too heavy" a gage, as I recall with my set, behaves exactly as you say, making the "adjustments hypersensitive...". I recall that the zone of adjustment acceptability was much narrower than we are used to with traditional wood parts.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div><blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in"><div><div><p> <u></u><u></u></p><p>By the way, all this was on an early set of cloth bushed WNG parts made 2 years or more ago. I suspect that in Ed Foote's case, some of these issues may remain while others may have been addressed, as I had long conversations with Bruce Clark about these issues some time ago. <u></u><u></u></p>
</div></div></blockquote><div><p class="MsoNormal">Likewise. It was my understanding that a lighter gage wire was being considered. In my experiments with the rep lever half of the spring ----- I shortened this segment and re-curled the top with rounding pliers keeping the curl well within the rep slot. This shortened segment had to now work harder to lift the hammer yet left a reasonable amount of tension in the jack segment. BTW, my parts were all hard bushed.<br>
<br>NG<br> <u></u><u></u></p></div><blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in"><div><div><p><u></u> <u></u></p></div></div></blockquote></div>
</div></div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Nick Gravagne, RPT<br>AST Mechanical Engineering<br>