Terry, Roger Gable and I rebuilt an old model K many years ago, and by the customer's request, we replaced the entire action with authentic parts. Ugh, the double flange action!  A nasty beast.  Also recapped and constructed a new bridge, fixed soundboard splits.. the whole 7.5 yards!  When we were finished, it was really a nice piano. Kicks butt on any 1098 I've ever worked on. You're right, though, If you dig into something like this, you're better off going for as much as you can do.  Just dampers won't cut it. My 2cents flat! Paul <table width=100%> <tr valign=top> <td>From: <td>"Don Hubbs" <donhubbs@mwt.net> <tr valign=top> <td>To: <td><pianotech@ptg.org> <tr valign=top> <td>Date: <td>02/08/2012 02:50 PM <tr valign=top> <td>Subject: <td>Re: [pianotech] Replacing dampers on a 1908 Steinway Upright</table> <hr noshade> As long as you don’t mind running back there multiple times to fix the next one that goes, and the customer doesn’t mind paying you repeatedly, then you can keep gluing little pieces of veneer to the edges of the damper levers, fitting oversized pins in the damper flanges and otherwise doing half-fast repairs. These old Steinway actions will suck you in and chew you up. If you aren’t going to do it right the first time, prepare the customer for ongoing service calls.   These are superior old pianos, but most of them have been played to death and yes, they often do need more action parts than can be economically justified. Is there any source for less expensive parts? Dealers can buy complete sets of hammers mounted on shanks and flanges for new asian pianos for less than $200. Has anyone modified these old actions to accept standard parts? The old V with the wooden damper lifters is the worst to work on..   I have 4 of these in my shop right now that I am trying to decide what to do with.   Don Hubbs   <div align=center> <hr></div> From: pianolover 88 [<a href=mailto:pianolover88@hotmail.com>mailto:pianolover88@hotmail.com</a>] Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2012 7:55 PM To: pianotech@ptg.org Subject: Re: [pianotech] Replacing dampers on a 1908 Steinway Upright   You're so right! And it made me think, my god!!!, what about ALL the other delicate, aging parts, like the pinblock, strings, soundboard, bridges, whips, jacks, butts, springs, trapwork...EVERYTHING MUST BE REPLACED!!!! I couldn't live with it if I didn't do a TOTAL rebuild, on the chance that SOMETHING might fail, fall apart, stop working perfectly, ect. Thank you Wim for showing me the light! How could I have been so blind!? And besides, the owners are elderly, retired, play the piano rarely, and live on a limited fixed income. But it's for their own good! My new motto: It's ALL or NOTHING!   Cheers! Terry "UniGeezer" Peterson "Over 50, and not '2' Tired!" <a href=http://unigeezer.com/ target=_blank>www.unigeezer.com</a> <div align=center> <hr></div> To: pianotech@ptg.org From: tnrwim@aol.com Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 20:46:13 -0500 Subject: Re: [pianotech] Replacing dampers on a 1908 Steinway Upright The general consensus I've gathered from various sources seems clear; "if you can <a href="http://www.grammarist.com/usage/make-do-make-due/" target=_blank>make do</a> with what's already there, i.e., the original dampers, DON'T try to replace them!!! You may make matters far worse, and dig yourself into an ever-deepening hole!" Cheers, Terry "UniGeezer" Peterson Terry The general consensus I got from all the posts was that it is easier, and a lot cheaper in the long run, to replace the levers now, than wait until the customer complains that the dampers aren't working, and when you try to adjust them, they start breaking.   But, hey, you asked for advice. Who are we to tell you you have to do what we recommend.   Good luck   Wim     -----Original Message----- From: pianolover 88 <pianolover88@hotmail.com> To: pianotech <pianotech@ptg.org> Sent: Tue, Feb 7, 2012 1:59 pm Subject: Re: [pianotech] Replacing dampers on a 1908 Steinway Upright The general consensus I've gathered from various sources seems clear; "if you can <a href="http://www.grammarist.com/usage/make-do-make-due/" target=_blank>make do</a> with what's already there, i.e., the original dampers, DON'T try to replace them!!! You may make matters far worse, and dig yourself into an ever-deepening hole!" Cheers, Terry "UniGeezer" Peterson "Over 50, and not '2' Tired!" <a href=http://unigeezer.com/ target=_blank>www.unigeezer.com</a> > From: <a href=mailto:joegarrett@earthlink.net>joegarrett@earthlink.net</a> > To: <a href=mailto:encorepianos@metrocast.net>encorepianos@metrocast.net</a>; <a href=mailto:pianotech@ptg.org>pianotech@ptg.org</a> > Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 23:21:35 -0800 > Subject: Re: [pianotech] Replacing dampers on a 1908 Steinway Upright > > Will, > Are you playing Devil's Advocate?<G> > See my answers below > > > > [Original Message] > > From: Encore Pianos <<a href=mailto:encorepianos@metrocast.net>encorepianos@metrocast.net</a>> > > To: <<a href=mailto:joegarrett@earthlink.net>joegarrett@earthlink.net</a>> > > Date: 2/6/2012 8:05:09 PM > > Subject: RE: [pianotech] Replacing dampers on a 1908 Steinway Upright > > > > Well, Steinway altered the design on the K-52's to a larger damper. Who > > decides what it was intended to be? Steinway changed the design, so they > > must have decided that the earlier one wasn't what they intended it to be. > > If you really knew the real story, you wouldn't be making that statement or > question. Truth is: They discontinued manufaccturing the K-52. And, as the > story goes, tossed out all of the original plans/jigs/fixtures,etc. Then, > years later, they decided that was a bad decision and decided to start > making that model again. They started with an olde one, that was not in > very good shape and tried to replicate it. However, they decided to use > Pratt-Win keys and actions instead of the original stuff. BIG FUBAR!!! > (this was during the time of TEFLON) I suspect there are still a few of > those turkeys out there.<G> Then, they decided to use Renner parts. It has > morphed into what it is today. Is it as good as the original design? I > don't think so! It's close, but it just ain't the same. The originals > had/have a beautiful singing quality throughout the scale. The new ones > seem to be somewhat lacking imo. > > > > The history of piano design was evolutionary up to the last hundred years > or > > so. Who decides when it has been perfected? > > That, sir, is a totally ridiculous question that I will not justify with my > answer!!! > > > > What is "too much damping"? Be specific on the amount, and how that is > > measured. > > Will, Go to bed and think about it, before asking, yet another stupid > question! > Respectfully, > Joe > > > > Will Truitt > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Joseph Garrett [<a href=mailto:joegarrett@earthlink.net?>mailto:joegarrett@earthlink.net</a>] > > Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 10:07 PM > > To: Encore Pianos; <a href=mailto:pianotech@ptg.org>pianotech@ptg.org</a> > > Subject: RE: [pianotech] Replacing dampers on a 1908 Steinway Upright > > > > Will, > > I disagree. But, suit yourself. > > My thought is this: Too much damping is just as bad as not enough. > > Most techs dislike over-damper pianos, because they do not dampen like the > > pianos they work on. Big mistake. The intended overall sound of the > > instrument is altered significantly when we attempt to make it something > it > > was not intended to be. That's my take on this. It's served me well. > > Best, > > Joe > > > > > > > [Original Message] > > > From: Encore Pianos <<a href=mailto:encorepianos@metrocast.net>encorepianos@metrocast.net</a>> > > > To: <<a href=mailto:joegarrett@earthlink.net>joegarrett@earthlink.net</a>>; <<a href=mailto:pianotech@ptg.org>pianotech@ptg.org</a>> > > > Date: 2/6/2012 6:36:19 PM > > > Subject: RE: [pianotech] Replacing dampers on a 1908 Steinway Upright > > > > > > The Tokiwa kit or equivalent is superior in damping to the original > > design. > > > The original dampers are too small to damp as effectively as the > > > longer > > bass > > > and tenor dampers of the kit. The new Steinway upright dampers are > > > longer than the old for that reason and damp better. > > > > > > Will Truitt > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: <a href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org">pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</a> [<a href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org?">mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</a>] On > > Behalf > > > Of Joseph Garrett > > > Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 8:57 PM > > > To: pianotech > > > Subject: Re: [pianotech] Replacing dampers on a 1908 Steinway Upright > > > > > > Terri the Uni-Geezer asked: > > > "I"m replacing worn hammers and *dampers* on a client's old Steinway > > > upright, circa 1908. Having never replaced dampers on this particular > > model, > > > I was unaware that--apparently--replacing dampers on this piano is a > > > NIGHTMARE, and one of the most difficult damper jobs of ANY piano, > > > either upright or grand. Is this true? This gloomy scenario was > > > communicated to > > me > > > by a tech who works at a local piano supply house, but I'd rather not > > > mention who. > > > > > > I was told that the felts, especially the treble, are 'tapered' and > > > that > > you > > > must "peel little layers off as you work your way up", or they won't > > > lift properly, and won't dampen correctly. Basically I was told that > > > ALL the dampers are almost impossible to get right with modern day > > > replacements, without significant modification. Pics attached are from > > > the action > > showing > > > the dampers. I would appreciate ANY advice the forum member may have, > > > and what you might suggest, short of declining the job! > > > > > > PS: Brooks LTD told me that the Tokiwa TDVK damper kit (pic also > > > attached) would work well. Your thoughts on this would also be > > appreciated." > > > > > > Terry "UniGeezer" Peterson, > > > > > > Replicating is far less difficult than climbing that big-ass hill!<G> > > > So, suck it up and reproduce exactly what is there. If you do not have > > > the necessary damper felt, (in strips and sets), the Guillotine > > > cutter, Hot > > Glue > > > Pot and other assorted tools necessary to that job, get them or farm > > > it > > out > > > to someone who can do the job correctly. The Tokiwa set may work. > > > Then again, maybe not. I've done several of these actions.. They ARE > > > the most difficult to work on, IMHO, so meticulous work is required. > > > OR, you will have the biggest nightmare of your piano loving career. > > > (I've had to clean up the mess of others that did not take this > > > advice...not a fun gig fer sur.) However, this is a worthy effort, > > > since the Steinway Uprights of that design/era were, IMO, some of the > > > best, ever. Yes, they are cranky critters, but the end result can be > > extremely gratifying/satisfying. > > > So........Go For It Big Uni-Geezer Dude!<G> Best, Joe P.S. > > > If you need specific help, feel free to call me. > > > > > > > > > Joe Garrett, R.P.T. > > > Captain of the Tool Police > > > Squares R I > > > > > > > > > > >