<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><br></div><div>Mr Foote,</div><div><br></div>Thanks for your thoughtful response, but I  have to point out that you are describing just the kind of "noise" that experimental designs seek to factor out. Selective responses, non-random assignment, selective attention, selective memory of what certain people have said . . . remember that people who LIKE your work (and/or, who like YOU) are much more likely to let you know what they think, than are those who don't prefer it or who don't notice the difference. You've tipped your hand by saying, "makes me wonder if some pianists even listen . . . " – there you go presuming your point has already been proven (i.e. that there is a real difference in these tunings) And you are relying on anecdote, which in a fair setting is never acceptable as evidence.<div><br></div><div>In re: the D tuning: the fact that you told " . . .(no one but) the artist" completely contaminates the results. Do you think what you told the artist could not have affected the way he performed, and hence the way the rest of the orchestra  might have played?!</div><div><br></div><div>"Experimenter effects" such as that one do need to be accounted for (i.e., controlled for in the experimental design.) And you're right, there are too many variables and too much subjectivity involved in these matters to corral it into the realm of true scientific study. But that doesn't mean you are left free to assert that your unscientific samples and anecdotes are corroborative of any theory whatever !</div><div><br></div><div>"My piano has never sounded so good" is indeed a welcome response, and personally I am glad to try and sell that experience. I don't kid myself, however, into thinking there might not be about a hundred reasons they might have said that . . . or truly believed that . . . </div><div><br></div><div>Are you certain you heard that "never sounded so good" statement with greater frequency after you switched over? (as the IRS might say: did you keep a written contemporaneous record?) Could it be that your customer relationships and reputation are simply getting better, and so people say more nice things about your work??</div><div><br></div><div>In re your final comment: maybe your tunings just got BETTER (more stable, more accurate, more consistent, better fitted to the instrument at hand) IRRESPECTIVE of whether you used an ET or not ? </div><div><br></div><div>Joseph</div><div><br></div><div><div>On May 1, 2012, at 8:26 AM, Ed Foote wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><font color="black" size="2" face="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, Serif"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: helvetica, arial; font-size: small; ">-----Original Message-----</span><br> <div style="color: black; "><font class="Apple-style-span" face="helvetica, arial" size="2">From: Joseph Giandalone </font><br> <font class="Apple-style-span" face="helvetica, arial" size="2">Subject: Re: [pianotech] Stealth temperaments</font><br> <br> <div id="AOLMsgPart_1_89767592-210f-4b05-b587-db14f98550ba"> <div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="helvetica, arial" size="2">>></font><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Georgia, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif" size="2"> </font><font class="Apple-style-span" face="helvetica, arial" size="2">Granted that it's "fun to experiment," I need to point out that what you describe here would not be considered a legitimate (scientific) experiment in any psychology lab or course in the world. You need truly controlled conditions, randomized selection and assignment of subjects, and DOUBLE BLIND ADMINISTRATION. Controlled conditions would include having 2 identical pianos, or perhaps the same piano tuned 2 diffrerent ways. In any case, the piano teacher (in your example) would not be permitted to know which piano had which tuning (nor would the students).</font></div> <div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="helvetica, arial" size="2"><br> </font></div> <div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="2" face="Georgia, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif">Greetings,</font></div> <div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="2" face="Georgia, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif">    Even in a clinical setting, the results are still subjective, in that there is no way to produce identical listeners.  Something along the lines of Ron's micrometers on marshmallows.   With such a huge variable in place, there can be no "proven" rules.    However, I have seen temperaments tested in blind situations that strongly indicate greater attraction.  </font></div> <div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="2" face="Georgia, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif"> </font></div> <div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="2" face="Georgia, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif">   Early on, I tuned a D in a Young temperament for a Steinway artist to play Beethoven's 3rd piano concerto.  I told no one but the artist.  Following the performance, the leader of the orchestra said that the students had never been so close on their intonation as they were that night, and he  didn't remember them ever sounding so tight.   The dean of the school, a trumpet player, told me later that he had never heard a piano sound so good.  This sparked my further interest. </font></div> <div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="2" face="Georgia, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif">   Iwadagen Pratt used my studio for practice several years ago. There were two similar Steinways in there at the time, and with nothing said, he ended up using the one tuned in a  WT as opposed to the ET one. </font></div> <div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="2" face="Georgia, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif">  Renee Fleming mentioned to the dean that she loved coming here because the piano was so nice to practice and perform with. (I keep the stage pianos in a mild WT all the time). </font></div> <div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="2" face="Georgia, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif"><br> </font></div> <div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="2" face="Georgia, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif">However, </font></div> <div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="2" face="Georgia, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif"><br> </font></div> <div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="2" face="Georgia, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif">   Two world reknown pianists, one a concert specialist,the other a famed clinician, have played here on well-tempered pianos, and neither of them noticed anything different.  In the clinician's master class, the Young was next to an ET piano, and the teacher never noticed, even when the same passage was played, repeatedly, on both pianos. Makes me wonder if some pianists even listen to what they are producing or not!</font></div> <div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="2" face="Georgia, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif">    In the piano tuning trade, the golden response from the customer is "My piano has never sounded so good!".  When we hear that, we know we have a return customer, and that is the flywheel of any business.  I began to hear this a lot more when I began tuning in a non-ET style.  ( and my ET was pretty good). </font></div> <div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="2" face="Georgia, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif">Regards,</font></div> <div style="font-family: helvetica, arial; font-size: 10pt; "><br> </div> <div style="font-family: helvetica, arial; font-size: 10pt; "> <span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: arial; font-size: small; ">Ed Foote RPT</span></div> <span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: arial; font-size: small; "><a href="http://www.piano-tuners.org/edfoote/index.html">http://www.piano-tuners.org/edfoote/index.html</a></span> </div>  </div> </font></blockquote></div><br></body></html>