<html> <head> <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=Windows-1252"> </head> <body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 14px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "> <div>ETD or not:  Here's a simple question; since pianos are either quite flat from not/never tuning, or a bit sharp in the summer months (here in the midwest, anyway). How much sharp or flat do you decide it has to have an extra charge for pitch adjustments?  I've struggled with this for many years….I'm just too easy going of a guy and probably have screwed myself out of plenty of extra money over the years.</div> <div><br> </div> <div>I've heard of some techs charging pitch adjustments for as little as 5-7 cents either way, but I just can't go there.  I'm pretty good at setting a one time pass at pianos in this range.  10 cents=boarderline and with lots of experiences, can overshoot juuuuusst enough to just run through it a very quick second time, and I didn't charge extra. More than that, then I'll adjust my pitch raise fee accordingly.  50 cents! Wow.. 100 cents! OUCH; I discuss this in depth with the customer before even starting and will REQUIRE several re-visits if they want the services.</div> <div><br> </div> <div>Do any of you with your customer just decide to tune it where it is?  I don't like to do this, but I've done it a few times over 20 years if we both decide that they'll always keep the piano forever (like grandma's wedding present 80 years ago, etc), or the piano just won't handle it, break strings, etc and they're fine with it being low.  </div> <div><br> </div> <div>Tuning them low is really strange too, but I've learned that (for you aural tuners) I adjust the F-3/A-3 third at slightly lower than the standard 7 beats per second….(you know, From Chicago to New York thing to get 7bps in your head…or have you not done that before??)….just imagine thinking fromchicagotonewyork in your head if you were from the deep south or even Maine!  (just kidding, folks!)  I'm sure that fromchicagotonewyork from those in those cities are a bit faster too ;>)  Certainly not like the legal jargon at the end of commercials, these days!! LOL</div> <div><br> </div> <div>(fromchicagotonewyork) for those who haven't heard that one is 7 syllables .  Say them in your head after getting a strict 60 bpm from a metronome….or just think of a Sousa march at 120 beats per minute and go with it!) I've got it down, but if I'm tired, will either take out a metronome or just look at the second hand on the nearest clock.</div> <div><br> </div> <div>Thanks for letting me spill here!</div> <div><br> </div> <div>Paul</div> <div><br> </div> <div><br> </div> <div><br> </div> <div><br> </div> <span id="OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION"> <div style="font-family:Calibri; font-size:11pt; text-align:left; color:black; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt"> <span style="font-weight:bold">From: </span>Encore Pianos <<a href="mailto:encorepianos@metrocast.net">encorepianos@metrocast.net</a>><br> <span style="font-weight:bold">Reply-To: </span><<a href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</a>><br> <span style="font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Fri, 11 May 2012 15:52:06 -0400<br> <span style="font-weight:bold">To: </span><<a href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</a>><br> <span style="font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>Re: [pianotech] Old can of worms (was Re: tunelab vs verituner)<br> </div> <div><br> </div> <div xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"> <meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 14 (filtered medium)"> <style></style> <div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple"> <div class="WordSection1"> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Allow me to clarify, because I think you misunderstood my remarks, at least in part.  Probably my fault for not being exact enough with the language.  <o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">I agree about the 60 cent flat piano not being in tune a week later and said as much.  Whether you tune electronically or aurally, that will be true either way, and a second visit is necessary if you are going to have a stable piano as a result.  And the electronic tuning can steer you more quickly through this kind of major pitch adjustment process.  When I am doing a major pitch raising, I still do it most of the time aurally.  I like to leave the piano in reasonably good tune so that when I come back I am fine tuning rather than doing pitch adjusting again.  So sometimes that means more pitch raises.  That is my general practice, and I do not claim it is better or worse, only that it works well for me.  Is there room for me to improve as a tuner?  Without a doubt.<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">I live in the Lakes Region of New Hampshire.  Northern New England is not the friendliest environment for pianos.  I have some pianos that I can tune in January at 40 cents flat and July at 30 cents sharp.  That’s extreme, but they are out there.  They sit on the edge of frozen lake in the winter with the wood stove going in the same room, and at the edge of the summer sauna during the dog days.  So it is likely that my environment is more extreme than yours<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">I have tuned a few pianos that were 10 cents flat generally that did require a third pass.  That’s rare, but it does happen.  There are some pianos out there that are inherently unstable.  Manufacturing flaws, who knows what it is.  They tune outside of the “normal” ranges of fluctuation I have come to expect after 38 years of tuning.  Most 10 centers are, as you say, a simple chore. Most of my regularly tuned  pianos are 10 to 25 cents flat in January unless they have supplemental humidity control.  Pitch raising is an everyday thing for me, mostly.  <o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">I do not claim to produce a superior tuning aurally.     <o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; "> <a href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org">pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</a> [<a href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org">mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Ed Foote<br> <b>Sent:</b> Friday, May 11, 2012 1:09 PM<br> <b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</a><br> <b>Subject:</b> Re: [pianotech] Old can of worms (was Re: tunelab vs verituner)<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-style-span"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; font-family: Georgia, serif; ">W</span></span><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; font-family: Georgia, serif; ">ill writes:<o:p></o:p></span></p> <div> <blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 2.0pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <pre><tt><span style="color:black"> But there are also plenty <o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre> <pre><tt><span style="color:black">of pianos where the pitch will wander up or down in ways that are not <o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre> <pre><tt><span style="color:black">predictable, and will do so no matter which method is used.  I can hear it <o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre> <pre><tt><span style="color:black">happen aurally, and quantify it by the machine if I want to.  I make several <o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre> <pre><tt><span style="color:black">passes before fine tuning, and I also know some good ETD tuners who will make 3 <o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre> <pre><tt><span style="color:black">passes on some of these beasts because their ear and the machine tells them that <o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre> <pre><tt><span style="color:black">is what it takes to get it right.  Sometimes the piano is 10 cents flat and <o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre> <pre><tt><span style="color:black">misbehaves as described, sometimes it is 60 cents flat and acting this way.  </span></tt><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></pre> </blockquote> </div> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; font-family: Georgia, serif; ">Greetings,  <o:p></o:p></span></p> <div> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; font-family: Georgia, serif; ">   Ok,  my logic button just got jammed.  I have never made three passes on anything before fine tuning, and I don't understand why it could even be necessary.  <o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; font-family: Georgia, serif; ">     A piano that is 60 cents flat is not going to be in tune a week later, at least, not any closer than you would leave it after one pitch raise and a fine tuning.  Doing three passes and then fine tuning is wasting time and effort.  If you happened to be in a recording studio with a 50 cent flat piano, things are already weird.  In that case, a second prep pass might be needed, but the piano is still going to be loose in a week.      </span><span class="apple-style-span"><span style="color: black; font-family: Georgia, serif; ">A piano that is only 10 cents flat overall, or even only in places, is a simple chore.   The SAT will leave that piano within 1 cent of final in about 20 minutes.  I don't have any trouble tuning to broadcast standards from 1 cent away in one pass.  </span></span><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; font-family: Georgia, serif; "><o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-style-span"><span style="color: black; font-family: Georgia, serif; ">     I do think that many users of ETD's are simplistic in their pitch raising. Setting it once each octave as the pitch raising progresses  from top to bottom might  send the heedless  tuner astray.      I measure the pitches across the piano before deciding what to do, and I do it with single strings, loose unisons don't provide very dependable information. </span></span><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; font-family: Georgia, serif; "><o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-style-span"><span style="color: black; font-family: Georgia, serif; ">      I have seen Yamaha C3's that were 10 cents flat in the low tenor, but by C5 were still at pitch. I wouldn't pitch raise more than the first couple of those notes on a 2.5 cent offset before I began taking my offsets from a fifth above where I am tuning.  This tapering in and out of correction values is light years beyond my aural pitch raising skills, (and they were pretty good).      Rare is the piano that is in tune with itself but  just off pitch.  It is more often that there will be sections higher or lower than others, and the careful use of the ETD will allow sufficient compensation during the pitch raise to leave the piano ready for as fine a tuning as one is capable of.     </span></span><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; font-family: Georgia, serif; "><o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; font-family: Georgia, serif; "><o:p> </o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-style-span"><span style="color: black; font-family: Georgia, serif; ">          The machine is just a tool, a very sophisticated tool.  If used in ignorance, it will produce poor results. Used in full awareness of what it can do, it has proven to be an indispensable asset in producing accurate and repeatable tunings with the least amount of time and stress.  Used as a repository of our finest tuning on a given piano, the ETD allows users to recreate that tuning later, and as we use it repeatedly, we can polish it till it shines, allowing us a degree of refinement that the aural tuner doesn't have access to.  Aurally, I had to re-invent the wheel every piano; electronically, I have all that experience hard-wired, right there in my hand. This allows me to spend my energy on unisons,where the machines do poorly.</span></span><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; font-family: Georgia, serif; "><o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-style-span"><span style="color: black; font-family: Georgia, serif; ">        I don't understand those that think they produce a superior tuning using just their ears,as opposed to another tuner that is using his ears AND a machine. There is room for everyone, but in my career, the economics of the business sure favor using technology. </span></span><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; font-family: Georgia, serif; "><o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-style-span"><span style="color: black; font-family: Georgia, serif; ">Regards,</span></span><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; font-family: Georgia, serif; "><o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; font-family: Georgia, serif; "><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <div> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">Ed Foote RPT<br> <a href="http://www.piano-tuners.org/edfoote/index.html">http://www.piano-tuners.org/edfoote/index.html</a></span><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; font-family: Georgia, serif; "><o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; font-family: Georgia, serif; "><br>   <o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> </div> </div> </div> </span> </body> </html>