<html><head></head><body bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><div>Another point to add information into this window in master tuning procedure......</div><div><br></div><div>It is common on the master to let the piano dictate how wide exactly between the </div><div>4:2 and 6:3 to make those first octaves. Piling thirds, and finding the "middle" place </div><div>For the middle third. Even if the given temporary octave is "wrong" , too wide or too </div><div>Narrow, the placement of the middle note for the middle place remains the same. And</div><div>So we go around a divorce of thirds always placing the middle one. Here the accuracy </div><div>Is only restricted by our ability to perceive that middle beat speed. <span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); ">So there is technique to allow the piano to speak to us and dictate the initial </span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); ">Placement. You likely very well know this already.</span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); "><br></span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469);">My purpose is to share that this technique is used n some master tunings and does result</span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469);">In something wider then 4:2.</span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469);"><br></span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469);">The rumor about 4:2 likely comes from trying to give candidates a test to hold onto that </span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469);">Will get them close enough and within tolerances to pass. The master does not literally </span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469);">Follow 4:2, as you can see from the various procedures Shared..........</span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469);">There is room for some debate here among CTE's.  Never less, the tests I am sharing are </span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469);">The actual tests I have witnessed, and practiced. </span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469);">    Approaching the bass in a master i was chastised once for going to quickly to a 6:3, and </span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469);">Encouraged to favor the 4:2, but I was not literally asked to follow the 4:2, just to favor it more.</span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469);">There remains some debate, and a little push and pull of people's ideas. All around there</span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469);">Is recognition that there is room within the tolerances for a little play/style variation, at the same time as wanting consistency between masters. Thus, the negotiation in the exam room can take </span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469);">Some time, and can be an enlightening experience, as people advocate for there preferences within the perimeters given. I like Jim colmans test for treble stretch shared in the last email, because it nails </span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); ">Down a subjective decision for consistency, and saves time in the master. </span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); "><br></span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); ">      The bottom line is the is enough tolerance to accommodate a wide range of styles with</span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); ">respectable scores. </span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); "><br></span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469);">      Tolerance in the midrange is a cent, becomes 3 cents, and in the extream range becomes 6 cents. The multipliers for error marks range from 3 in the mid, so 6 errors is 18%, to one  in </span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469);">The  extremes, so 6 errors is 6%.   Current master tuning protocol, even with some room </span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469);">For small variation, does produce masters that work to earmark errors outside these tolerances.</span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469);">So it functions. I don't think I have heard a  temperament error that did not have a wolf 4th or 5th.</span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469);">.9 cent either way is a 1.8 cent window.......and variations up and down 1.8 cents  can get 100% </span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469);">And yet be a rather "interesting" temperament. The masters function.</span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469);"><br></span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469);">       For your experiment I much prefer the verituner data first, to comparing aural tunings first.</span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469);"><br></span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469);">I tried to explain to R.N. that two exam teams for 2 days is 48 man hours. I always prescreening</span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469);">Candidates before booking a test to make sure I'm not wasting people's time. This will be like </span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469);">Prescreening before booking a team. Except, with lots of real data.  If someone is motivated to </span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469);">Prove the proven changes on inharmonisity do effect aura tuning, that assumption I think is a very very safe assumption, but that assumption can be tested afterwards if we wish. First I wantto know if the harmonic content of the tone actually does change seasonally, and by how much, </span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469);">And is there a pattern to the type of piano style, bearing, structure that changes more...</span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469);">The implications for tuners are large in my mind, especially to those of us using saved concert tunings for broadcast standard work on concert stages. </span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469);"><br></span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469);">Ok.......got to visit my shop, all this thinning is facilitating procrastination.......</span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469);"><br></span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469);">                                                                          Dave Renaud</span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469);"><br></span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469);"><br></span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469);"><br></span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469);"> </span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469);"><br></span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469);"><br></span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469);">                       </span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469);"><br></span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469);"><br></span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469);"><br></span></div><div><br><br>Sent from my iPad</div><div><br>On 2012-05-18, at 9:28 AM, Ron Koval <<a href="mailto:drwoodwind@hotmail.com">drwoodwind@hotmail.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><div></div><blockquote type="cite"><div> <style></style> <div dir="ltr"> So I've been thinkin'.... (I know, often dangerous!)<div><br></div><div>Since the point of the experiment is to document where, if there is any change to an aural-type tuning with change in humidity,</div><div>we shouldn't need to emulate a master tuning.  As long as each individual Verituner tech keeps the same style for different seasons, </div><div>the experiment should work.  I'm guessing we're looking for at least 20-30 percentage points in relative humidity change.</div><div><br></div><div>We should document:</div><div>piano model, bridge break location, stringing break location, if not at bridge break.... strut locations?  (what else?)</div><div>Relative humidity saved with file name.</div><div><br></div><div>Make sure to fill the "I"s as much as possible with a single string - picking the clearest one.</div><div>Save the files, but I suppose we could graph just the RPT test partials for comparison?</div><div>A0-B2 - 6th </div><div>C3-B4 - 4th </div><div>C5- B5 - 2nd </div><div>C6-C8 - 1st </div><div><br></div><div>Here's the Verituner-specific part:  </div><div><br></div><div>I don't think we should use the built-in styles...  I'm often asked why I spent so much time on the custom styles, when the built-in ones do such a good job.  For me it comes down to fudge-factors.  (This is gonna get a little wonky here.)  The Verituner calculates the temperament octave based on a directed octave width, then every other section is controlled by another set of comparisons of calculated beat rates based on both the inharmonicity data collected and the strength of the sounding partials.  The Verituner makes a target for a number of partials and then (hidden to us, though you can see it in measure mode) has a spinner for each partial.  There is a combination of all of these spinners to drive the main spinner/needle that we see in tuning mode.  </div><div><br></div><div>Where's the fudge factor?  Let's consider just the temperament octave.  Aurally for most decent size pianos, we'd like to use multiple checks to determine that the A3-A4 octave is set about half way between a 4:2 and a 6:3 octave.  With a custom style, this is pretty easy to set up.  We set the beats to zero (comparing 'pure' octave matches) and weight each octave type 50%.  (they should always add up to 100%)  Different size pianos "want" different widths to the temperament...    </div><div><br></div><div>Compare that with the built in average style.  (go to the style menu, choose built-in, highlight average and then choose design)  You'll see that the A3-A4 octave is set using only the 4:2 octave match, just set about 1/3bps wide of pure.  While this often makes the tuning end up in the same place, I've always thought it best to include more "checks" into the process.  Each other section of the piano is also set using single partial checks between octave or other interval types with the built-in styles.   </div><div><br></div><div>I'd be happy to help any tech set up an appropriate custom style for the specific piano you will be testing.  There is an export program available that allows you to dump the tuning targets into a spread sheet.   </div><div><br></div><div>We should probably make multiple files (fill the "I"s again) at each measured humidity to get a range of variability of the Verituner...</div><div><br></div><div>Any other suggestions before we begin?  We're still somewhere around 40%RH most places indoors around Chicago.</div><div><br></div><div>Ron Koval</div><div><br></div><div><br></div> </div> </div></blockquote></body></html>