<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:st1="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"> <head> <meta http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> <meta name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 11 (filtered medium)"> <o:SmartTagType namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="PersonName"/>  <style>  </style> </head> <body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=blue> <div class=Section1> What I have been taught is typically for a grand. I would use the socket screws, drill all the way through the inner rim so they can be accessed with a long allen wrench from the underside. Difference is that I align them to a boss and use the existing plate screws to hold the boss against the socket screw – like replacing a dowel for a socket screw. Don’t appear like this can happen on an upright and the challenge becomes good alignment.<o:p></o:p> I hear the argument for the WNG’s as well and want to thank everyone for so many good comments and sharing your designs.<o:p></o:p> Gene<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> <div> <div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'> <hr size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1> </div> From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On Behalf Of Dale Erwin Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 6:29 PM To: <st1:PersonName w:st="on">pianotech@ptg.org</st1:PersonName> Subject: Re: [pianotech] S&S K(52) Restoration<o:p></o:p> </div> <o:p> </o:p> I'll second this David.     I hold the world record for the most WN& G plate suspension bolts used according to Mark Burgett.  Its simple,straight forward, easy, elegant and no messing around.   My story too.<o:p></o:p> <div> Dale Erwin... RPT Mason & Hamlin/Steinway/U.S pianos www.Erwinspiano.com 209-577-8397 <tt> </tt> <tt>  </tt><o:p></o:p> </div> <o:p> </o:p> <div> -----Original Message----- From: David Love <<st1:PersonName w:st="on">davidlovepianos@comcast.net</st1:PersonName>> To: pianotech <<st1:PersonName w:st="on">pianotech@ptg.org</st1:PersonName>> Sent: Tue, May 29, 2012 5:11 pm Subject: Re: [pianotech] S&S K(52) Restoration<o:p></o:p> <div id="AOLMsgPart_0_1c890a1a-0491-47e5-92ce-8882c742bb30"><pre style='background:white'><tt>I'm not arguing that the system doesn't work.  There's plenty of evidence<o:p></o:p></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt>with people using the do it yourself method and I've done more than my share<o:p></o:p></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt>this way.  The question is the trade off of cost versus time and the<o:p></o:p></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt>benefit.  I don't see any advantage to having this method over the WN&G<o:p></o:p></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt>system other than the possibility of cost and that's a question mark when I<o:p></o:p></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt>figure out the time difference.  The WN&G system looks nicer and, in my<o:p></o:p></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt>experience, has zero chance of slippage.  So if cost is not a real benefit<o:p></o:p></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt>then why bother.  When I used this method, which I did on many occasions<o:p></o:p></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt>until the WN&G system came out, I found that the time involved was greater.<o:p></o:p></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt>Filling the holes, making sure they are drilled straight, ordering the<o:p></o:p></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt>components and assembling take much longer than with the WN&G system which<o:p></o:p></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt>involved no more than drilling out the existing holes.  I've also found with<o:p></o:p></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt>the do it yourself method that the Allen wrench adjustment was much more<o:p></o:p></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt>difficult to use due to the relatively small size of the Allen wrench that<o:p></o:p></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt>fits the socket screws.  The WN&G system allows for a thicker diameter<o:p></o:p></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt>T-wrench adjustment which means that you can have the receiving end secured<o:p></o:p></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt>more snuggly without worrying about being able to turn it.  I found the<o:p></o:p></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt>socket screws trickier to get right and in the end found epoxy fillers to be<o:p></o:p></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt>unreliable in terms of how the threads cut into them.  The torque on those<o:p></o:p></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt>socket screws I found to vary quite a bit and that was whether I did them or<o:p></o:p></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt>someone else did.  <o:p></o:p></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><o:p> </o:p></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt>There seemed to be plenty of people advocating for the do it yourself method<o:p></o:p></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt>so I thought it would be useful to think about the two methods side by side.<o:p></o:p></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt>There is a real benefit to the WN&G system, in my view, both in terms of<o:p></o:p></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt>appearance and function.  I can think of more reasons than not to spend that<o:p></o:p></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt>extra $200 on the WN&G system.  That being said, I trust that people will<o:p></o:p></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt>make up their own minds based on whatever criteria they choose.  <o:p></o:p></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><o:p> </o:p></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt>I guess we now both have a story we're sticking to.<o:p></o:p></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><o:p> </o:p></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt>David Love<o:p></o:p></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><a href="http://www.davidlovepianos.com" target="_blank">www.davidlovepianos.com</a><o:p></o:p></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><o:p> </o:p></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><o:p> </o:p></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt>From: <a href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org">pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</a> [<a href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org?">mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</a>] On Behalf<o:p></o:p></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt>Of Encore Pianos<o:p></o:p></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt>Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 4:26 PM<o:p></o:p></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt>To: <a href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</a><o:p></o:p></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt>Subject: Re: [pianotech] S&S K(52) Restoration<o:p></o:p></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><o:p> </o:p></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt>You have to fill the holes (I am assuming you are talking about the plate<o:p></o:p></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt>bolt holes in the rim and not those in the plate) either way.  What I do is<o:p></o:p></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt>run the socket set screw through the plate to the height desired, spin the<o:p></o:p></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt>flange nut up to the bottom of the plate, run a little masking tape under<o:p></o:p></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt>the bottom of the bolt to keep epoxy out of it,  spin the nut up out of the<o:p></o:p></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt>way, slop some epoxy onto the threads, spin the nut down to the top of the<o:p></o:p></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt>tape, then remove the tape.  You're there.  Not hard or long to do.  Ready<o:p></o:p></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt>to install after the epoxy sets.   No problems, your mileage may vary, I'll<o:p></o:p></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt>let Ron speak for himself as he's done tons more of these than I have.<o:p></o:p></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt>Suffice it to say my conclusion is different than yours about the utility of<o:p></o:p></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt>this method.<o:p></o:p></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><o:p> </o:p></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt>I use the WNG bolts also (they sure are purdy....), but I wouldn't say one<o:p></o:p></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt>method is better than the other, properly applied.  <o:p></o:p></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><o:p> </o:p></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt>That's my story and I'm sticking to it.  <o:p></o:p></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><o:p> </o:p></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt>Will<o:p></o:p></tt></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><o:p> </o:p></tt></pre></div> </div> </div> </body> </html>