<font color='black' size='2' face='Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, Serif'> <div style="color: black; "> <div id="AOLMsgPart_1_28a733f0-fdeb-4639-a3b3-fecfb824cb49"> <font color="black"> <div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Georgia, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif; font-size: 12px; white-space: pre; "> J Patrick Draine wrote:</span></div> <div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px; font-family: Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; "><pre><tt><font class="Apple-style-span"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Georgia, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif; font-size: 9pt; ">> Straying from the thread title, what were the benefits and/or deficits > of using 1/0 versus 2/0 pins? I recollect Ed Foote mentioned favoring > 1/0; what was your analysis?</span></font></tt></pre></span></div> <div style="font-family: helvetica, arial; font-size: 13px; ">Greetings,  </div> <div><font class="Apple-style-span"><font class="Apple-style-span" face="helvetica, arial" size="2" style="font-size: small; ">   I began using 1/0 pins many years ago after Chris Robinson explained how he switched in order to allow more repinning, if needed later.  I like the feel.  The difference in stiffness is, I think, nearly academic.  Feel free to check the math, because I know there are three kinds of people in this world: those that can add and those that can't. I compare 1/0 to 2/0 pins, below. </font><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Georgia, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px; white-space: pre;"><br> </span></font></font> <div style="color: black; "> <div id="AOLMsgPart_0_b6ea181c-eaa2-4f92-90c9-b509b19db00d" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); "><pre><tt><font class="Apple-style-span"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Georgia, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif; font-size: 9pt; "> </span></font><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Georgia, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif" style="font-family: Georgia, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif; font-size: small; ">Ron writes: </font><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif" style="font-family: Georgia, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif; font-size: small; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 9pt;"><< Tuning Yamaha grands with pins smaller than 1/0 (6.9mm, were they?), compared to a restring with 2/0 pins, it struck me that the smaller pins were more forgiving of variations in pin fit in the block, and turned more easily with less pin/block surface contact and those nice cut thread pins.</span><<</font></tt></pre><pre style="font-size: small; "><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif"> Ok, my math tells me that the 1/0 pins (.275"), given a 1 inch depth in the block, present a surface area of .8635" vs. the 2/0 pins,</font></pre><pre style="font-size: small; "><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif"> (these were .281") with a surface area of .8823". I cannot tell the difference .02" makes in surface resistance. I would think it is the threads. </font></pre><pre style="font-size: small; "><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif"> </font></pre><pre style="font-size: small; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif; ">>>Now, I'd say if you want a lower range of torque in a new block, getting </span></pre><pre style="font-size: small; font-family: Georgia, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif; "><tt><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif">uniform results would be easier with 1/0 pins if flagpoling isn't a problem for you.<<</font></tt></pre><pre style="font-size: small; "><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif"><br> </font></pre><pre style="font-size: small; "><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif"> I tune with a flag pole. In most pianos, I am spending the majority of my tuning time making the last <1 cent adjustments to create the unisons. I do this by flexing the pin slightly down from where I have left the pin by rotating it,(</font><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif; ">a totally rigid pin wouldn't allow this technique, instead, requiring that the pin be in only one position in the block for a given pitch.)</span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif; "> I rotate it with one, long push from approx. 10 cents sharp. I aim to position the pin so that when the top string and speaking lengths are equally tensioned, the pitch is X amount sharp. The flex needs only to allow me to lower it X amount without leaving the top string so tight that instability occurs going sharp. This X amount varies with the piano, and is related to the amount of friction between the pin and the speaking length.  None are totally rigid, so I think we all deal with this, all the time, in some degree. I know I can tell a 5/0 in a tight block from the 2/0's around it by the way it flexes, but I can't tell a 1 from a 2. Most of my tunings are done on pianos I tune anywhere from 4 to 50 times a year or more and by now, it seems that when a string leaves the unison behind, it has a 50/50 chance of going sharp or flat. I think this indicates a good balance. (Jerry Lee Lewis once looked at me, dead in the blood-shot eye, and told me that the piano was going to be out of tune half way through the session, so plan on sticking around. 2 hours later, he said he had wasted his money having me stay)</span></pre><pre style="font-size: small; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif; "> There is sufficient latitude in either pin size to flex my way to purity. On the test rig in the shop,( a one beer affair with a vise, a pin, weighted tuning hammer and a dial indicator). I find that about a 4 lb weight, 25 cm from the head, will deflect the larger pin .080" and the smaller one .077". I think these flagpoles are enough alike for me and my technique to disregard. </span></pre><pre style="font-size: small; "><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif"> The main reasons I am using 1/0 pins is that they will allow the first restringing to simply bring the block up to where others started, their slightly smaller diameter obviates spacing problems when things get crowded, and in blocks with very small webbing holes,( some way old Steinways), they introduce an additional margin of error. </font></pre><pre style="font-size: small; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif; "> I was once told, somewhere at a convention, that the 2/0 pin became standard because a 1/4" drill bit left a hole that was just right for a real tight block. Plausible, but I don't know any more than that. </span></pre><pre style="font-size: small; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif; ">Regards, </span></pre><pre style="font-size: small; font-family: Georgia, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif; "><tt><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif"><br> </font></tt></pre><pre style="font-size: small; font-family: Georgia, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif; "><tt><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif"> </font></tt><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: arial; white-space: normal; ">Ed Foote RPT</span></pre><pre style="font-size: small; font-family: Georgia, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; white-space: normal; "> <div style="font-size: 13px; font-family: Georgia, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif; clear: both; "><font color="black" face="arial" size="2">http://www.piano-tuners.org/edfoote/well_tempered_piano.html</font></div> <div style="color: black; "><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Georgia, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif" style="font-family: helvetica, arial; font-size: 10pt; "> </font></div> </span></pre> </div>  </div> </div> </font> </div>  </div> </font>