<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"><tr><td valign="top" style="font: inherit;"><div>Another way to discern the relative vibration conduction of various case materials would be to simply touch a tuning fork to some part of the cases distant from their soundboards, and compare results. Many of us have experienced an annoying, loud buzz coming from a piano that is dicovered to be originating from a loose hinge pin or desk screw; so, again, it is reasonable to assume that vibrations from the strings and board will travel around the case and come back into the board at another point, affecting tone in some way. And that the type and density of the core material will have an effect on this transmission. But whether that effect is positive or negative to tone is completely subjective, and none of us are (I presume) replacing 100 year old Mason cases with MDF during rebuilds, so the matter is not particularly germane to this list, and I'll not mention it further. <br />(Other than to say that I personally prefer the tone of a top-notch, classic piano with a very hard wood core.)<br /><br />Thumpe</div></td></tr></table> <div id="_origMsg_"> <div style="font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif:font-size:10pt"> <br /> <div style="font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt"> <font size="2" face="Tahoma"> <hr size="1"> <b> <span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span> </b> Euphonious Thumpe <lclgcnp@yahoo.com>; <br> <b> <span style="font-weight:bold:">To:</span> </b> <pianotech@ptg.org>; <br> <b> <span style="font-weight:bold:">Subject:</span> </b> Re: [pianotech] Thubby Chipboard, was: Flagpoling <br> <b> <span style="font-weight:bold;">Sent:</span> </b> Sat, Aug 11, 2012 7:47:54 PM <br> </font> <br> <table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"> <tbody> <tr> <td valign="top" style="font:inherit;"><table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"><tr><td valign="top" style="font:inherit;"><div>Ron,<br /> If not the MDF, then what aspect of this piano's construction is it that caused me to wonder "Gee, this thing sounds like it's made out of chipboard?" and then examine it until I found out that it, in fact, was???*<br /> These composites are relatively acoustically "dead" (will not support specific frequencies due to sympathetic vibration -- you could not make satisfactory xylophone bars out of them, for example) and that may indeed be a "plus" to some manufacturers. (Especially speaker cabinet makers!) But to infer that the case materials of a piano have no influence on its tone makes no sense to me, whatsoever; and to test this apparent disparity in our opinions, I suggest that you -quite simply- take your very finest grand, analyze its tonal spectrum electronically, and then spray it all over with rubberized auto body undercoating (or spray-on bedliner) and then test again. <br />Ten bucks says that the analyzer will show a difference; and that a half-dozen, randomly chosen, totally neutral and blindfolded musicians and piano tuners will be able to hear one, too.<br /><br /> As an alternative, a general sense of the effect of core materials on tone should be able to be garnererd by simply tapping the cases of 2 pianos of similar scale as far as possible from the soundboard (such as below the keyslip): one with a hardwood core, one with MDF. While pressing the sustain pedal to hear how readily the very slight vibrations are transferred to the board and transduced into humanly audible sound. Again: ten bucks says that the piano with the hardwood core will transfer them more readily.<br /><br />Thumpe<br /><br />*I am not alone in this experience. I have a tuner friend who discovered it, himself, independently.</div></td></tr></table> <div id="_origMsg_"> <div style="font-family:arial, helvetica,;"> <br /> <div style="font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt;"> <font size="2" face="Tahoma"> <hr size="1"> <b> <span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span> </b> Ron Nossaman <rnossaman@cox.net>; <br> <b> <span style="">To:</span> </b> <pianotech@ptg.org>; <br> <b> <span style="">Subject:</span> </b> Re: [pianotech] Thubby Chipboard, was: Flagpoling <br> <b> <span style="font-weight:bold;">Sent:</span> </b> Sat, Aug 11, 2012 1:08:14 PM <br> </font> <br> <table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"> <tbody> <tr> <td valign="top" style="font:inherit;">On 8/10/2012 5:19 PM, Euphonious Thumpe wrote:<br>> Very funny, Terry.<br>> The reason is that as I tuned, the thought passed through my mind of<br>> "Gee, this thing sounds like a cheap speaker sold out of the trunk of a<br>> '70 Mercury in a parking lot!" (in 1978), and then I rememberd that<br>> those cardboardish-sounding speakers were in cheap, chipboard cabinets;<br>> so checked the construction of the Yammy and, sho' 'nuff, found the<br>> same, basic, sucking-up-sound core material.<br><br>Therefore, all Yamahas with MDF cases sound "thubby"? That would be news to a whole lot of folks who hear otherwise, including me.<br><br><br>> Just go read some<br>> historical literature on piano construction from its "Golden Age" of<br>> fierce competition (1880-1915) and you'll find manufacturers stating<br>> quite bluntly (to each other-not for marketing purposes) that choice of<br>> woods, including veneers,<br>> was made with the intent of losing as little vibratory energy to heat<br>> transduction as possible. (Rosewood, for example, was not just chosen<br>> for its looks.)<br><br>And as usual, intent without physical basis of reality is considerably more common than is reality. I often hear the phrase "it just stands to reason" associated with these flights of fantasy and delusion. That phrase, and the word "simply" used in an explanation, are usually a good indication that what follows is reality lite. While you refrained from using these (thank you), quoting "Golden Age" manufacturers' blunt speculations isn't any better validation of truth.<br><br>I sat through one of the last classes given by Roger Weisensteiner. In the course of the class, he delivered the most comprehensive and awe inspiring collection of piano mythology, cliches, and outright nonsense that I've EVER heard in such a condensed, thorough, and relentless form. I don't think he missed a single one that I'd heard in my years in the business, and he had a number of them that were new to me but similarly bizarre. It was a consummate masterpiece of disinformation and fuzzy thinking, and I've wished many times since that I had a video of that amazing class.<br><br>More recently, I'm told that the little beveled cap on top of the soundboard on the treble end of the belly rail is to wedge the soundboard perimeter in and maintain crown in the last octave! Right, as another manufacturer's rim tensioning device retains crown in the whole piano (through the life of the piano) by preventing the rim from spreading and dropping the arch of the ribs.<br><br>Oddly, neither had anything to say about mice.<br><br>Ron N<br></td> </tr> </tbody> </table> </div> </div> </div> </td> </tr> </tbody> </table> </div> </div> </div>