<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Clarifying question. Ron, as I understand it, your Key-in measurements starts at 20mm from end of key, whereas some are referring to a line from balance rail pin to the end of the key. Trying to get an handle on this. What am I missing here?<div> <div> <span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-variant: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-variant: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-variant: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div style="font-family: Arial; font-size: medium; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; ">Al -</div><div>High Point, NC</div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; "> </div></div> </div> </div> </div> <div><div>On Sep 21, 2012, at 11:44 PM, Ron Nossaman wrote:</div> <div>On 9/21/2012 8:21 PM, David Love wrote: <blockquote type="cite">Thanks Ron.  Question.  How did the jack knuckle contact point that you used </blockquote><blockquote type="cite">compare to the jack center pin?  Were they close? </blockquote> Nowhere near. Center pin spread was 99mm, where what I used was 82. I see I screwed up the description of wipout. It's a point on the wip beam, perpendicular to the point of knuckle contact, not level. My apologies. It always annoyed me that the cumulative leverage of the presumed moment arms matched so poorly with Dale's 6mm in/out direct measurement. Something's wrong, and I'll take direct first. So this approach is based on perpendiculars to direction of travel. I know, it's rotational, but the rotational stuff is more suited to scholarly smoke generation and "dissembly" than practical math, because nothing rotates all that far. The hammer out is the exception, but then hammer mass is a really big part of the system, as I've tried to describe many times to the key lead removers. It seemed like a reasonable thing at the time. The surprise is how well it matched direct proportional measurement. I'd be interested in how this works on other actions and models. If you'd run it through yours and see how it matches, I'd like to see the numbers. This may be totally out to lunch, but it clicked pretty well with my model. Ron N <blockquote type="cite">David Love </blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><a href="http://www.davidlovepianos.com">www.davidlovepianos.com</a> </blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> </blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> </blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> </blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Keeping the measured levers close to parallel with one another, and the </blockquote><blockquote type="cite">resulting force close to perpendicular to the levers - Try </blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> </blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Key in: 20mm from front, along bottom to balance pin center Key out: balance </blockquote><blockquote type="cite">pin center, along bottom to point below capstan position, perpendicular to </blockquote><blockquote type="cite">key Wip in: center pin, parallel to wip beam to perpendicular line to </blockquote><blockquote type="cite">capstan contact point Wip out: center pin, parallel to wip beam to </blockquote><blockquote type="cite">perpendicular line to knuckle contact point Hammer in: knuckle core center, </blockquote><blockquote type="cite">parallel to shank to center pin Hammer out: center pin to roughly center of </blockquote><blockquote type="cite">mass of hammer </blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> </blockquote><blockquote type="cite">With my old Teflon centered, felt knuckled Steinweigh action model, I get - </blockquote><blockquote type="cite">sorry, no pretty formatting??? </blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> </blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Key In - bottom 20mm from end to bottom balance 220 </blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Key Out - bottom balance to bottom capstan position 114 </blockquote><blockquote type="cite">KeyRatio 1.93 </blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Wip In - capstan pos, level to flange center pin 65 </blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Wip Out - center pin level to knuckle contact point 82 </blockquote><blockquote type="cite">WipRatio 1.26 </blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Hammer In - knuckle core to center pin 16 </blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Hammer Out - center pin to center of hammer mass 130 </blockquote><blockquote type="cite">ShankRatio 8.13 </blockquote><blockquote type="cite">TotalRatio Distance Leverage 5.31 </blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> </blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> </blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Key Down at pin 6 </blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Hammer Rise 32 </blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Action Ratio 5.33 </blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> </blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Ron N </blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> </blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> </blockquote> </div></div> </div></body></html>