<font color='navy' size='2' face='Comic Sans MS, sans-serif'><font color="#000080" face="Comic Sans MS, sans-serif">Yes my friend,</font><font color="#000080" face="Comic Sans MS, sans-serif" size="2"> but have I ever changed your opinion? :) </font> <div><font color="#000080" face="Comic Sans MS, sans-serif" size="2">  Your post as always ...Good thoughts and perspective and not one that I disagree with. The main thing is to set an even dip/overall key travel with some consistent amount of force. A precise consistency is the thing here not microscopic detail here. Consistency is what pianist like in their overall perception of touch, tone and regulation/repitition</font> <div><font color="#000080" face="Comic Sans MS, sans-serif" size="2">    Curious though about the placebo affect.  Did your clients<u> know</u> they had a new fangled punching under their fingertip.? My own Mahogany B has these and a well designed and precisely balanced action. At least 50 people have played for some periods of time upon it and the only feedback I get is how even and responsive it is.</font></div> <div><font color="#000080" face="Comic Sans MS, sans-serif" size="2">  To be clear; I don't use crescendos on every action. They are more money comparatively. Sometimes the criteria is, I use what's in stock. But for really fine pianist I often use the crescendo punchings. I don't draw attention to it but sometimes ask later if everything feels good in the action. </font></div> <div><font color="#000080" face="Comic Sans MS, sans-serif" size="2">SO far no comments to indicate an unpleasant firm stopping of the key stroke or bleeding fingers. And;... in reality without an A-B comparison on the same instrument the feedback or lack of it that I site may be meaningless.</font></div> <div><font color="#000080" face="Comic Sans MS, sans-serif" size="2"><br> </font></div> <div><font color="#000080" face="Comic Sans MS, sans-serif" size="2"> How about others out there? Any comments,feedback with these vs. other front punchings</font><br> <br> <div style="color: navy; font-family: 'Comic Sans MS', sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; clear: both; "><font size="1" color="royalblue"><b><font face="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, Serif"><font color="black"><font color="mediumblue" face="Comic Sans MS, sans-serif">Dale Erwin R.P.T.<br> <font color="green">Erwin's Piano Restoration Inc.</font><br> </font></font></font></b></font><font color="darkgreen"><span style="font-style: italic;"><b><font size="1"><font size="1" color="black"><font color="blueviolet"><font color="black"> <font color="black" face="Comic Sans MS, sans-serif">Mason & Hamlin</font><font face="Comic Sans MS, sans-serif">/Steinway/</font><font color="black" face="Comic Sans MS, sans-serif">U.S. pianos</font><font face="Comic Sans MS, sans-serif"><br> </font></font></font></font><font size="1" color="cornflowerblue" face="Comic Sans MS, sans-serif">www.Erwinspiano.com</font><font size="1"><br> </font><font size="1" color="crimson" face="Comic Sans MS, sans-serif">Phone: 209-577-8397</font><br> <font color="darkgreen"></font></font></b></span></font><tt><tt><font color="darkgreen"><br>  </font><br>   <font size="2"></font></tt></tt><br> <br> </div> <br> <br> <div style="color: black; font-family: arial, helvetica; font-size: 10pt; ">-----Original Message-----<br> From: David Love <davidlovepianos@comcast.net><br> To: pianotech <pianotech@ptg.org><br> Sent: Wed, Oct 10, 2012 6:06 am<br> Subject: Re: [pianotech] Hammer Blow<br> <br> <div id="AOLMsgPart_1_a1754b85-eac9-4700-8914-2d1553199898"> <div class="WordSection1"> <div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:">Sorry, bad arithmetic, should read  “the difference between .405 and .425”.  Doesn’t change my opinion.  </span></div> <div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"> </span></div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:">David Love</span></div> <div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"><a href="http://www.davidlovepianos.com" target="_blank">www.davidlovepianos.com</a></span></div> </div> <div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"> </span></div> <div> <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"> <div class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"> <a href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org">pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</a> [<a href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org?">mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>David Love<br> <b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, October 10, 2012 5:57 AM<br> <b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</a><br> <b>Subject:</b> Re: [pianotech] Hammer Blow</span></div> </div> </div> <div class="MsoNormal"> </div> <div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:">I don’t agree.  We tend to look at the piano in terms of what we do to, which is regulate it.  Pianists could care less what makes our job easier, they care about how it feels when we are done.  Yes, a slightly squishier punching means we have to decide at what point we consider the key bottomed out.  It also means that on a very firm blow the punching might compress a few thousandths of an inch  more.  Does that really mess up our regulation or influence how the action plays?  I don’t think so.  But it does influence how the key stroke feels when it hits bottom.   Why not use an even firmer punching, one that doesn’t compress at all?  Then we could set it really precisely.  Of course, we’d be getting a lot of complaints.   Using the firmer punching isn’t the difference between .390 and .425, it’s the difference between .410 and .425 (if those squish numbers , .035 and .015, are correct—never actually tested it myself), but even that’s only meaningful with touch that actually compresses them that much during real playing which probably isn’t that often.  Even then, I don’t think it matters.  With a delicate touch while setting dip you can easily be uniform about the degree of compression, or, you can use a weighted dip tool.  During fast repetition, nobody is applying enough force at the bottom of the key stroke to compress the punching appreciably.  Fast repetitive playing involves releasing the downward force of the key as early as possible, often before you even get to the bottom of the stroke. </span></div> <div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"> </span></div> <div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:">Like I said, I think we fall into the trap of thinking in terms of piano technicians and not pianists sometimes.  A softer punching makes determining the bottom of the key stroke easier, yes, but it doesn’t make the piano play any better and, in my experience both personal and otherwise, makes the landing too hard—hurts my fingers.  With pianists for whom I’ve installed them I’ve had more complaints than compliments and for the most part ended up removing them for more conventional types.  Well made punchings are plenty firm in my experience and should strike a good balance between dip setting and playing dynamics.  </span></div> <div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"> </span></div> <div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"> </span></div> <div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:">David Love</span></div> <div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"><a target="_blank" href="http://www.davidlovepianos.com">www.davidlovepianos.com</a></span></div> <div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"> </span></div> <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"> <div class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"> <a href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org">pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</a> [<a href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org">mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Dale Erwin<br> <b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 09, 2012 9:44 PM<br> <b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</a><br> <b>Subject:</b> Re: [pianotech] Hammer Blow</span></div> </div> <div class="MsoNormal"> </div> <div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"> </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:">You don’t play the piano by setting dip. </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:">Not sure what this means.</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"> </span></div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"> Our ability to set precise dip by having a punching that doesn't compress is secondary, moreover, unimportant.</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"> </span></div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:">  </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:">I think it is important</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"> </span></div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"> T</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:">he amount of aftertouch varies by touch force. The key has to find a bottom at some point. and that bottom is the end of the squish. After the jack has entered let-off phase it enters aftertouch phase or esacpement from the knuckle. As the punching squish happens the jack is moving at varying distances from the knuckle depending on touch force, which <u>is</u> affecting repetition to one degree or another.</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"></span></div> </div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:">  If I am setting a .390 dip & I have a punching with .035 squish then my precisely set dip is meaningless as my total key travel can now be as much as .425. Too deep in my practice</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"></span></div> </div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:">Also my opinion is that more energy is going into the felt and the keybed and less into the hammer string contact time.</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"></span></div> </div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"> </span></div> </div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"> I find pianist who like the feel of actions set up with crescendos. The response this action is really even. I've had both feed backs. The really mushy ones I find objectionable, the touch feels undefined somehow.</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"></span></div> </div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:">  On some pianos there is too much thump noise migrates thru the keybed. In one case I removed them for that cause.</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"></span></div> </div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:">By the way what do you'all use in terms of woven punching that might be a bit firmer. I've liked some from Piano-tek</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"></span></div> </div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:">Dale</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"></span></div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:">Dale Erwin R.P.T.</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"></span></div> </div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"> </span></div> <div id="AOLMsgPart_1_8aacdd53-7059-4667-8bc3-f1d8f8b7113a"> <div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:">They do produce more easy to determine dip distance but I find them generally way too hard.  A little give in the punching I find desirable for the sake of the pianist’s finger and often for the sake of noise and key thumping.  Our ability to set precise dip by having a punching that doesn’t compress is secondary, moreover, unimportant.  You don’t play the piano by setting dip.  </span></div> </div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"> </span></div> </div> <div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:">David Love</span></div> </div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"><a target="_blank" href="http://www.davidlovepianos.com">www.davidlovepianos.com</a></span></div> </div> </div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"> </span></div> </div> <div> <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"> <div> <div class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"> <a href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org">pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</a> [<a href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org?">mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Paul Williams<br> <b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 09, 2012 7:14 AM<br> <b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</a><br> <b>Subject:</b> Re: [pianotech] Hammer Blow</span></div> </div> </div> </div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"> </span></div> </div> <div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:">I've been also using the crescendo punchings for the past couple years and love working with them…waaaay more consistent results.</span></div> </div> </div> <div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"> </span></div> </div> </div> <div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:">Paul</span></div> </div> </div> <div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"> </span></div> </div> </div> <div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"> </span></div> </div> </div> <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"> <div> <div class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:">From: </span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:">Dale Erwin <<a href="mailto:erwinspiano@aol.com">erwinspiano@aol.com</a>><br> <b>Reply-To: </b>"<a href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</a>><br> <b>Date: </b>Tuesday, October 9, 2012 8:51 AM<br> <b>To: </b>"<a href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</a>><br> <b>Subject: </b>Re: [pianotech] Hammer Blow</span></div> </div> </div> <div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"> </span></div> </div> </div> <div> <div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:">Hi Floyd </span></div> </div> <div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"> Dittos on Jons post. </span></div> </div> <div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:">   </span></div> </div> <div> <div style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> <div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:">  And just the squish factor of the avergae supply house front punching changes the feel and amount of overall dip/aftertouch based on touch pressure. They squish as much as .035 compared to .015 for Jurgens crescendo punchings. If you're looking for more precision in key dip/aftertouch its only logical use the latter to reduce errors from variables</span></div> </div> <div> <div style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> <div class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:">Dale Erwin R.P.T.<br> Erwin's Piano Restoration Inc.<br> <i>Mason & Hamlin/Steinway/U.S. pianos<br> <a target="_blank" href="http://www.Erwinspiano.com">www.Erwinspiano.com</a><br> Phone: 209-577-8397<br> </i></span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"><br> </span><tt><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black"> </span></tt><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"><br> </span><tt><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black">  </span></tt><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"></span></div> </div> </div> <div style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> <div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"> </span></div> </div> <div> <div style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> <div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:">-----Original Message-----<br> From: Jon Page <<a href="mailto:jonpage@comcast.net">jonpage@comcast.net</a>><br> To: pianotech <<a href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</a>><br> Sent: Tue, Oct 9, 2012 4:29 am<br> Subject: Re: [pianotech] Hammer Blow</span></div> </div> <div id="AOLMsgPart_0_4dc601ce-6494-4815-825c-66d7b36d40c3"><pre style="background:white"><tt><span style="color:black"> >This week I'm going to see what happens to my hammer line if I set </span></tt><span style="color:black"></span></pre><pre style="background:white"><tt><span style="color:black">hammer blow to achieve a specified amount of aftertouch.  I've set the </span></tt><span style="color:black"></span></pre><pre style="background:white"><tt><span style="color:black">key height, >key dip and letoff.  I'll put the action in the piano, use a .045 punching with a notch cut out so I can slide it onto the front </span></tt><span style="color:black"></span></pre><pre style="background:white"><tt><span style="color:black">rail pin over the cloth >punching with the key installed, and set the </span></tt><span style="color:black"></span></pre><pre style="background:white"><tt><span style="color:black">hammer blow for each of the white keys such that a weight on the key (I </span></tt><span style="color:black"></span></pre><pre style="background:white"><tt><span style="color:black">forget how many grams, and I'm >not in the shop to check) brings it </span></tt><span style="color:black"></span></pre><pre style="background:white"><tt><span style="color:black">almost to let-off, and a slight downward tap on the key will take it </span></tt><span style="color:black"></span></pre><pre style="background:white"><tt><span style="color:black">through let-off. Theoretically, the straightness of >the hammer line I </span></tt><span style="color:black"></span></pre><pre style="background:white"><tt><span style="color:black">achieve with this procedure should allow me to evaluate how successful I </span></tt><span style="color:black"></span></pre><pre style="background:white"><tt><span style="color:black">was in setting even key dip and consistent aftertouch.</span></tt><span style="color:black"></span></pre><pre style="background:white"><tt><span style="color:black"> </span></tt><span style="color:black"></span></pre><pre style="background:white"><tt><span style="color:black">Your hammer line will become erratic by doing this because of the </span></tt><span style="color:black"></span></pre><pre style="background:white"><tt><span style="color:black">slightly different Key Ratios between notes. That procedure is what you </span></tt><span style="color:black"></span></pre><pre style="background:white"><tt><span style="color:black">do to set an even touch with a priority given to aftertouch. But to do </span></tt><span style="color:black"></span></pre><pre style="background:white"><tt><span style="color:black">this, you alter the dip not the blow distance. Keys level, hammer line </span></tt><span style="color:black"></span></pre><pre style="background:white"><tt><span style="color:black">level, key dip slightly uneven. The pianist feels a even aftertouch and </span></tt><span style="color:black"></span></pre><pre style="background:white"><tt><span style="color:black">not an uneven key dip. Altering the blow on an individual basis will </span></tt><span style="color:black"></span></pre><pre style="background:white"><tt><span style="color:black">introduce volume discrepancies brought on by varying blow distances.</span></tt><span style="color:black"></span></pre><pre style="background:white"><tt><span style="color:black"> </span></tt><span style="color:black"></span></pre><pre style="background:white"><tt><span style="color:black">Aftertouch calibration by varying dip slightly is essential to a smooth </span></tt><span style="color:black"></span></pre><pre style="background:white"><tt><span style="color:black">feeling action.</span></tt><span style="color:black"></span></pre><pre style="background:white"><tt><span style="color:black"> </span></tt><span style="color:black"></span></pre><pre style="background:white"><tt><span style="color:black">-- </span></tt><span style="color:black"></span></pre><pre style="background:white"><tt><span style="color:black">Regards,</span></tt><span style="color:black"></span></pre><pre style="background:white"><tt><span style="color:black"> </span></tt><span style="color:black"></span></pre><pre style="background:white"><tt><span style="color:black">Jon Page</span></tt><span style="color:black"></span></pre><pre style="background:white"><tt><span style="color:black"> </span></tt><span style="color:black"></span></pre></div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div>  </div> </div> </div> </font>