<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=windows-1252"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Dale,<div><br></div><div>What I have alway done with both center rail and front rail punchings, is to lay them all together on a marble slab and iron them flat. This compresses them. For the center rail, you get a more stable key level and for the front rail, you have a firmer punching. I also like Dave Stanwood's idea of using hammer harder. I'll give that a try on the FR punchings after ironing them.<div><br><div><div apple-content-edited="true"> <div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Arial; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; border-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-variant: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; border-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-variant: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; border-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-variant: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; border-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div style="font-family: Arial; font-size: medium; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; "><font class="Apple-style-span" face="'Lucida Calligraphy'"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; "><i>Al -</i></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="'Lucida Calligraphy'"><i>High Point, NC</i></font></div></div></span></div></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></div></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></div></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></div>On Oct 10, 2012, at 12:43 AM, Dale Erwin <<a href="mailto:erwinspiano@aol.com">erwinspiano@aol.com</a>> wrote:</div><div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><font color="navy" size="2" face="Comic Sans MS, sans-serif"><font face="arial, helvetica" size="1"> </font><font size="2"><font face="arial, helvetica">You don’t play the piano by setting dip. </font><font color="#0000cd" face="Comic Sans MS, sans-serif">Not sure what this means.</font></font> <div><font face="arial, helvetica"><span style="font-size: 14.666666984558105px;"> Our ability to set precise dip by having a punching that doesn't compress is secondary, moreover, unimportant.</span></font> <div><font size="2"><span style="font-family: arial, helvetica; ">  </span><font face="Comic Sans MS, sans-serif" color="#0000cd">I think it is important</font></font> <div><font face="Comic Sans MS, sans-serif" size="2"> T<font color="#0000cd">he amount of aftertouch varies by touch force. The key has to find a bottom at some point. and that bottom is the end of the squish. After the jack has entered let-off phase it enters aftertouch phase or esacpement from the knuckle. As the punching squish happens the jack is moving at varying distances from the knuckle depending on touch force, which <u>is</u> affecting repetition to one degree or another.</font></font></div> <div><font face="Comic Sans MS, sans-serif" size="2"><font color="#0000cd">  If I am setting a .390 dip & I have a punching with .035 squish then my precisely set dip is meaningless as my total key travel can now be as much as .425. Too deep in my practice</font></font></div> <div><font color="#0000cd" face="Comic Sans MS, sans-serif" size="2">Also</font><font face="Comic Sans MS, sans-serif" size="2"><font color="#0000cd"> my opinion is that more energy is going into the felt and the keybed and less into the hammer string contact time.</font></font></div> <div><font face="Comic Sans MS, sans-serif" size="2"><font color="#0000cd"><br> </font></font></div> <div><font face="Comic Sans MS, sans-serif" size="2"><font color="#0000cd"> I find pianist who like the feel of actions set up with crescendos. The response this action is really even. I've had both feed backs. The really mushy ones I find objectionable, the touch feels undefined somehow.</font></font></div> <div><font face="Comic Sans MS, sans-serif"><font color="#0000cd" size="2">  On some pianos there is too much thump noise migrates thru the keybed. In one case I removed them for that cause.</font></font></div> <div><font face="Comic Sans MS, sans-serif"><font color="#0000cd" size="2">By the way what do you'all use in terms of woven punching that might be a bit firmer. I've liked some from Piano-tek</font></font></div> <div><font face="Comic Sans MS, sans-serif"><font color="#0000cd"><font size="2">Dale</font><br> </font></font><br> <div style="color: navy; font-family: 'Comic Sans MS', sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; clear: both; "><font size="1" color="royalblue"><b><font face="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, Serif"><font><font color="mediumblue" face="Comic Sans MS, sans-serif">Dale Erwin R.P.T.<br> </font></font></font></b></font></div> <div style="font-family: arial, helvetica; font-size: 10pt; "><br> <div id="AOLMsgPart_1_8aacdd53-7059-4667-8bc3-f1d8f8b7113a"> <div class="WordSection1"> <div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:">They do produce more easy to determine dip distance but I find them generally way too hard.  A little give in the punching I find desirable for the sake of the pianist’s finger and often for the sake of noise and key thumping.  Our ability to set precise dip by having a punching that doesn’t compress is secondary, moreover, unimportant.  You don’t play the piano by setting dip.  </span></div> <div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"> </span></div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:">David Love</span></div> <div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"><a href="http://www.davidlovepianos.com/" target="_blank">www.davidlovepianos.com</a></span></div> </div> <div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"> </span></div> <div> <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"> <div class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"> <a href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org">pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</a> [<a href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org?">mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Paul Williams<br> <b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 09, 2012 7:14 AM<br> <b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</a><br> <b>Subject:</b> Re: [pianotech] Hammer Blow</span></div> </div> </div> <div class="MsoNormal"> </div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:">I've been also using the crescendo punchings for the past couple years and love working with them…waaaay more consistent results.</span></div> </div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"> </span></div> </div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:">Paul</span></div> </div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"> </span></div> </div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"> </span></div> </div> <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"> <div class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:">From: </span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:">Dale Erwin <<a href="mailto:erwinspiano@aol.com">erwinspiano@aol.com</a>><br> <b>Reply-To: </b>"<a href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</a>><br> <b>Date: </b>Tuesday, October 9, 2012 8:51 AM<br> <b>To: </b>"<a href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</a>><br> <b>Subject: </b>Re: [pianotech] Hammer Blow</span></div> </div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"> </span></div> </div> <div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:">Hi Floyd </span></div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"> Dittos on Jons post. </span></div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:">   </span></div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:">  And just the squish factor of the avergae supply house front punching changes the feel and amount of overall dip/aftertouch based on touch pressure. They squish as much as .035 compared to .015 for Jurgens crescendo punchings. If you're looking for more precision in key dip/aftertouch its only logical use the latter to reduce errors from variables</span></div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:">Dale Erwin R.P.T.<br> </span></b><b><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:">Erwin's Piano Restoration Inc.</span></b><b><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"><br> </span></b><b><i><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:">Mason & Hamlin/Steinway/U.S. pianos<br> </span></i></b><b><i><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"><a target="_blank" href="http://www.erwinspiano.com/">www.Erwinspiano.com</a></span></i></b><b><i><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"><br> </span></i></b><b><i><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:">Phone: 209-577-8397</span></i></b><b><i><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"><br> </span></i></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"><br> <tt> </tt></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"><br> <tt>  </tt></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"></span></div> </div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"> </span></div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:">-----Original Message-----<br> From: Jon Page <<a href="mailto:jonpage@comcast.net">jonpage@comcast.net</a>><br> To: pianotech <<a href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</a>><br> Sent: Tue, Oct 9, 2012 4:29 am<br> Subject: Re: [pianotech] Hammer Blow</span></div> <div id="AOLMsgPart_0_4dc601ce-6494-4815-825c-66d7b36d40c3"><pre style="background:white"><tt><span style=""> >This week I'm going to see what happens to my hammer line if I set </span></tt></pre><pre style="background:white"><tt><span style="">hammer blow to achieve a specified amount of aftertouch.  I've set the </span></tt></pre><pre style="background:white"><tt><span style="">key height, >key dip and letoff.  I'll put the action in the piano, use a .045 punching with a notch cut out so I can slide it onto the front </span></tt></pre><pre style="background:white"><tt><span style="">rail pin over the cloth >punching with the key installed, and set the </span></tt></pre><pre style="background:white"><tt><span style="">hammer blow for each of the white keys such that a weight on the key (I </span></tt></pre><pre style="background:white"><tt><span style="">forget how many grams, and I'm >not in the shop to check) brings it </span></tt></pre><pre style="background:white"><tt><span style="">almost to let-off, and a slight downward tap on the key will take it </span></tt></pre><pre style="background:white"><tt><span style="">through let-off. Theoretically, the straightness of >the hammer line I </span></tt></pre><pre style="background:white"><tt><span style="">achieve with this procedure should allow me to evaluate how successful I </span></tt></pre><pre style="background:white"><tt><span style="">was in setting even key dip and consistent aftertouch.</span></tt></pre><pre style="background:white"><tt><span style=""> </span></tt></pre><pre style="background:white"><tt><span style="">Your hammer line will become erratic by doing this because of the </span></tt></pre><pre style="background:white"><tt><span style="">slightly different Key Ratios between notes. That procedure is what you </span></tt></pre><pre style="background:white"><tt><span style="">do to set an even touch with a priority given to aftertouch. But to do </span></tt></pre><pre style="background:white"><tt><span style="">this, you alter the dip not the blow distance. Keys level, hammer line </span></tt></pre><pre style="background:white"><tt><span style="">level, key dip slightly uneven. The pianist feels a even aftertouch and </span></tt></pre><pre style="background:white"><tt><span style="">not an uneven key dip. Altering the blow on an individual basis will </span></tt></pre><pre style="background:white"><tt><span style="">introduce volume discrepancies brought on by varying blow distances.</span></tt></pre><pre style="background:white"><tt><span style=""> </span></tt></pre><pre style="background:white"><tt><span style="">Aftertouch calibration by varying dip slightly is essential to a smooth </span></tt></pre><pre style="background:white"><tt><span style="">feeling action.</span></tt></pre><pre style="background:white"><tt><span style=""> </span></tt></pre><pre style="background:white"><tt><span style="">-- </span></tt></pre><pre style="background:white"><tt><span style="">Regards,</span></tt></pre><pre style="background:white"><tt><span style=""> </span></tt></pre><pre style="background:white"><tt><span style="">Jon Page</span></tt></pre><pre style="background:white"><tt><span style=""> </span></tt></pre></div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div>  </div> </div> </div> </div> </font></div><br></div></div></div></body></html>