<font color='black' size='2' face='Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif'> <div>Besides, the way we say it locally, "Louis" is one sylable, anyway. </div> <div> </div> <div>Wim</div> <div></div> <div style="color: black; font-family: arial,helvetica; font-size: 10pt;">-----Original Message-----<br> From: tnrwim <tnrwim@aol.com><br> To: pianotech <pianotech@ptg.org><br> Sent: Sun, Nov 11, 2012 2:14 pm<br> Subject: Re: [pianotech] Possible adaptation for the Tuning Exam<br> <br> <div id="AOLMsgPart_1_bf3eb057-2a51-499e-a268-43f21a8a9df4"> <font color="black" size="2" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <div><font style="background-color: transparent;" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">That's OK. Since it's a shorter trip, he can skip a beat.</font></div> <div> </div> <div>Wim</div> <div></div> <div style="clear: both;"> <div> </div> </div> <div></div> <div></div> <div style="color: black; font-family: arial,helvetica; font-size: 10pt;">-----Original Message-----<br> From: Paul Williams <<a href="mailto:pwilliams4@unl.edu">pwilliams4@unl.edu</a>><br> To: pianotech <<a href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</a>><br> Sent: Sun, Nov 11, 2012 1:58 pm<br> Subject: Re: [pianotech] Possible adaptation for the Tuning Exam<br> <br> <div id="AOLMsgPart_1_afffaf0d-83ab-4f97-9b8a-9a9e34088070"> <div>Wim! That's 8 syllables!  We only need to count to 7, hense the "fromchicagotonewyork" thing.  Let's go with that.</div> <div><br> </div> <span id="OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION"> <div style="border-width: 1pt medium medium; border-style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) currentColor currentColor; padding: 3pt 0in 0in; text-align: left; color: black; font-family: Calibri; font-size: 11pt;"> <span style="font-weight: bold;">From: </span>"<a href="mailto:tnrwim@aol.com">tnrwim@aol.com</a>" <<a href="mailto:tnrwim@aol.com">tnrwim@aol.com</a>><br> <span style="font-weight: bold;">Reply-To: </span>"<a href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</a>><br> <span style="font-weight: bold;">Date: </span>Sunday, November 11, 2012 6:52 PM<br> <span style="font-weight: bold;">To: </span>"<a href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</a>><br> <span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject: </span>Re: [pianotech] Possible adaptation for the Tuning Exam<br> </div> <div><br> </div> <div> <div><font color="black" size="2" face="Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"> <div><font style="background-color: transparent;" face="Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"></font></div> <div style="color: black; font-family: arial,helvetica; font-size: 10pt;"> <blockquote style="padding-left: 3px; border-left-color: blue; border-left-width: 2px; border-left-style: solid;"> <pre><tt>Maybe Duanie;I have a take on this? Try this Duaine. Get your ETD set to set F-3 and A-3 and hear 7 beats per second. Can you hear the beats? I use "From Chicago to New York" as my 7 beats per second> Does that work? Try it and see what happens. fromchicagotonewyorkfromchicagotonewyorkwawawawawawawawawawawawawawaww etc.Just get the groove and see what happens! Let me know if you can hear that beat going on.Just trying to help bud. PW</tt></pre> </blockquote> </div> <div>Duaine</div> <div> </div> <div>If you don't want drive from Chicago to New York, you might want to go fromst.louistochicago. It's a much shorter drive, and you can go back the same way, along Route 66, or what's left of it. lol </div> <div> </div> <div>Wim</div> <div></div> <div style="clear: both;"> <div> </div> </div> <div></div> <div></div> <div style="color: black; font-family: arial,helvetica; font-size: 10pt;">-----Original Message-----<br> From: Paul Williams <<a href="mailto:pwilliams4@unl.edu">pwilliams4@unl.edu</a>><br> To: pianotech <<a href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</a>><br> Sent: Sun, Nov 11, 2012 1:38 pm<br> Subject: Re: [pianotech] Possible adaptation for the Tuning Exam<br> <br> <div style="margin: 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, Sans-Serif; font-size: 12px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" id="AOLMsgPart_0_aa8c375b-741c-4590-8dc4-26b54bea81d2"> <pre style="font-size: 9pt;"><tt>That's beautiful! If one can't hear it, one can't tune it. That's all. Your descriptions are very clear! Love it! I don't think Duaine hears it all that well. Just my take on it. Maybe Duanie;I have a take on this? Try this Duaine. Get your ETD set to set F-3 and A-3 and hear 7 beats per second. Can you hear the beats? I use "From Chicago to New York" as my 7 beats per second> Does that work? Try it and see what happens. fromchicagotonewyorkfromchicagotonewyorkwawawawawawawawawawawawawawaww etc.Just get the groove and see what happens! Let me know if you can hear that beat going on.Just trying to help bud. PW On 11/11/12 4:47 PM, "Encore Pianos" <<a href="mailto:encorepianos@metrocast.net">encorepianos@metrocast.net</a>> wrote: >Duane: > >No one has put it simply enough yet: You can't tune an acceptable >temperament or anything else in the piano using a pitch pipe or an octave >set of tuning forks because of I-N-H-A-R-M-O-N-I-C-I-T-Y, Duane. That's >what the others are talking about when they use the word stretch. Did you >know that your ETD measures inharmonicity and calculates a tuning with >algorithms based on those measurements? That's why the ETD tuning can >sound >good, and why a skilled aural tuning can sound good. It's also the reason >why when you are at a church you cannot tune a piano to an organ note for >note. If you do not have a good working understanding of inharmonicity, >here's a place to start, Wikopedia. ><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inharmonicity" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inharmonicity</a> There's a lot more to it than >that regarding pianos, but you really need to have at least a basic >understanding of inharmonicity before you can begin to hold up your half >of >an intelligent conversation with others on this list concerning how a >piano >is tuned. If you do not know about inharmonicity or understand it, you>will >not understand why the choices that are made by man or machine in tuning >are >being made. > >I'll even do some of the work for you, from Wikopedia: > >Inharmonicity leads to stretched tuning > >When pianos are tuned by ear by technicians called piano tuners, the >technician listens for the sound of "beating" when two notes are played>together, and tunes to the point that minimizes roughness between tones. >Piano tuners must deal with the inharmonicity of piano strings, which is >present in different amounts in all of the ranges of the instrument, but >especially in the bass and high treble registers. The result is that >octaves >are tuned slightly wider than the harmonic 2:1 ratio. The exact amount >octaves are stretched in a piano tuning varies from piano to piano and >even >from register to register within a single piano-depending on the exact >inharmonicity of the strings involved. > >Because of the problem of inharmonicity, electronic piano tuning devices >used by some piano technicians are not designed to tune according to a >simple harmonic series. Rather, the devices use various means to duplicate >the stretched octaves and other adjustments a technician makes by ear. The >most sophisticated devices allow a technician to make custom inharmonicity >measurements--simultaneously considering all partials for pitch and volume >to determine the most appropriate stretch to employ for a given >instrument. >Some include an option to simply record a tuning that a technician has >completed by ear; the technician can then duplicate that tuning on the >same >piano (or others of similar make and model) more easily and quickly. > >The issues surrounding setting the stretch by ear vs machine have not been >settled, machines are better at deriving the absolute placement of >semitones >within a given chromatic scale, whereas non-machine tuners prefer to >adjust >these locations preferentially due to their temptation to make intervals >more sonorous. The result is that pianos tuned by ear and immediately >checked with a machine tend to vary from one degree to another from the>purely theoretical semitone (mathematically the 12th root of two) due to >human error and perception. (If pleasing the ear is the goal of an aural >tuning, then pleasing the math is the goal of a machine tuning.) This is >thought to be due to the fact that strings can vary somewhat from note to >note and even from neighbors within a unison. This non-linearity is >different from true falseness where a string creates false harmonics and >is >more akin to minor variations in string thickness, string sounding length >or >minor bridge inconsistencies. > >Piano tuning is a compromise-both in terms of choosing a temperament to>minimize out-of-tuneness in the intervals and chords that will be played, >and in terms of dealing with inharmonicity. For more information, see >Piano >acoustics and Piano tuning. > >Another factor that can cause problems is the presence of rust on the >strings or dirt in the windings.[5] These factors can slightly raise the >frequency of the higher modes, resulting in more inharmonicity. > >While others may offer somewhat differing interpretations of what is said >here, it is at least simple and straightforward to get you into the >ballpark >of what is going on. > >Will Truitt > >-----Original Message----- >From: <a href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org">pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</a> [<a href="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org?">mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</a>] On >Behalf >Of Paul Williams >Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2012 4:47 PM >To: <a href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</a> >Subject: Re: [pianotech] Possible adaptation for the Tuning Exam > >True; true A 440 is the way to go If you can't set A-440 first, then you >can't take the test period! >Paul > >On 11/11/12 3:07 PM, "Jon Page" <<a href="mailto:jonpage@comcast.net">jonpage@comcast.net</a>> wrote: > >>If you can't hear beats, you can't use a tuning fork. You have to hear >>the beats to 'zero' it in. >> >>Or is it that you can hears the beats on unisons and octaves but the >>intervals elude you. Take the time, listen closer. Have a tuner guide >>you as to what to listen to. >> >>A pitch pipe's pitch will vary by the degree of air flow. A harder blow >>will create a higher pitch. Temperature would be another variable. >> >>I saw one tuner strike the fork on his knee and then hold the end >>between his teeth, this allowed him to play the note and tune >>simultaneously. It worked for him but it looked really weird. >> >>To set your A or C from a fork, tune the corresponding note to the fork >>and then tune the note an octave lower to that note. Check the lower >>note with the fork, listen to the beat rate and adjust lower note to >>the octave to be the same beat rate sharp or flat. Check lower note>>against fork. If off, tune the upper note to the new beat rate. Check >>upper note against fork. If necessary, adjust the lower note to the>>beat rate. Once you have established the lower note pure with the fork, >>tune the upper note to it. Proceed with your temperament. >> >>But if you can't discern beats, stick with an ETD. >> >>-- >>Regards, >> >>Jon Page >> >> > > > > > </tt></pre> </div> </div> </font></div> </div> </span> </div> </div> </font> </div>  </div> </font>