<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"><tr><td valign="top" style="font: inherit;"><div>I'm a rollicking neophyte when it comes to matters of rebuilding, when compared with some of the experts on this list; but, as a (sometimes) professional pianist, "liveliness" I define as: A) An astonishing amount of volume coming from the soundboard in relation to the amount of speed put into the keystroke. B) An ADDITIONALLY astonishing, seemingly EXPONENTIAL increase in volume, in relation to INCREASED keystroke speed. C) An increase in "brightness", also occasioned by this increased keystroke speed. My favorite pianos provide all of these experiences together and in full; while my less favorite ones perform them unevenly, and/or less. (And I rely on you experts, via this list, to help me comprehend the building/rebuilding factors which facilitate them!) Gratefully, Thumpe</div></td></tr></table> <div id="_origMsg_"> <div style="font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif:font-size:10pt"> <div style="font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt"> <hr size="1"> From: David Love <davidlovepianos@comcast.net>; To: <pianotech@ptg.org>; Subject: Re: [pianotech] Belly talk Sent: Sun, Dec 2, 2012 6:03:26 PM <table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"> <tbody> <tr> <td valign="top" style="font:inherit;">Liveliness is difficult to define as any terms we use will mean something different and there are probably different components to  what we refer to as lively.  By liveliness I don't mean clarity.  You can have clarity without liveliness.  Many of the Asian pianos have clarity but aren't lively.  Lively to me means there is a certain type of reactivity, meaning that the board seems to have some amount of stored energy that is easily accessed and easily released.  This is different than a board that has low impedance but little stored energy.  Low impedance boards also react to energy inputs (by definition) but aren't necessarily lively because they dissipate the energy too quickly.  Lively here means reactivity but a controlled rate of energy dissipation.  With respect to previous discussions about how narrow the window is for soundboard design to achieve that, I believe the window that keeps those things in balance is quite small, but that's another discussion.  Lively also means to me that the decay has a non linear quality to it almost as if the board phases in and out in a very subtle way as the decay progresses.  That is an important but intangible feature of liveliness to me and tuning certainly is a contributory factor here.  Liveliness may also imply a broader range of tonal color. A month or so ago I had two pianos in the shop, two Steinway AIIIs.  In fact I posted it on the list with an open invitation for technicians in the area to come and listen to them if they wanted to as it gave an opportunity to hear two identical models side by side with slightly different treatments. I had installed soundboards in both.  There were slight differences in the designs.  One had a cut-off, one did not.  The rib scales were slightly different with the cut-off piano being slightly stiffer as determined by beam formulas.  Both panels were thinned similarly.  Scaling was identical. Both were ribbed and installed at 5.5%.  Both had sitka panels and sitka ribs.  Hammers were different.  The non cut-off piano had a set of Steinway hammers.  The cut-off piano had a set of Abel Select hammers from Pianotek, a relatively cold pressed Abel.  Sadly, not one technician took me up on the offer.  I guess talk is more interesting that real experience.  Fortunately several pianists I invited did take the opportunity to come and compare.  The jury of about 12 pianists (the number is ironic) was split about evenly. No one reacted negatively to either piano but some preferred one over the other for various reasons.  The non cut-off piano (Piano A) had a somewhat more conventional NY Steinway sound.  It was a bit darker, but slightly fuller, more power, and described by many as being more "lively", interestingly enough.  The piano with the cut-off bar (Piano B) was described as having greater clarity, a bit brighter (hammers may have been a factor here), but less lively.  It was easier to push Piano A to the limit meaning the upper end fortissimo had greater impact, more oomph.  Piano B when pushed stayed more in control.  That was a positive for some, a negative, or let's just say a "less positive" for others.  No one mentioned sustain differences in any section of either piano and in my view there really weren't any.  My own take was that Piano A was what I would call more lively as defined in the first paragraph.  Piano B I liked very much but for different reasons. It had more clarity, more control, and a more linear quality which many people liked.  I don't think either piano created artificial limits on the music that would or could be played on each, but the overall effect was somewhat different and the appeal would, and did, depend largely on each pianist's own personal tonal preferences.  David Love www.davidlovepianos.com -----Original Message----- From: <a ymailto="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org" href="javascript:return">pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</a> [mailto:<a ymailto="mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org" href="javascript:return">pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</a>] On Behalf Of Jim Ialeggio Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2012 6:53 AM To: <a ymailto="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org" href="javascript:return">pianotech@ptg.org</a> Subject: [pianotech] Belly talk In German, rasten can mean "to rest".  Maybe its generic German carpentritic <G> for a glue ledge of any sort?? Dale, and David used the word "lively" in descriptions of tonal attributes in some of their previous posts. I'm curious what they mean by lively, as words are tricky when referring to sound.  In my own work, "lively" is one of the main reasons I consider myself roughly of the lineage of Nossaman & Fandrich(though of course with my own biases). "Lively", for me, in my boards, means, I can walk up to the piano, lift the dampers, sing into the board, and hear the pitch back along with a very strong coupled shimmer from a good part of the rest of the board. This shimmer has a nice high partial quality, not at all shrill.  It allows voice-like sustain which I use all the time in my playing. I don't get this in any other pianos I service or play, and am always glad to come home to the "liveliness and clarity of my own instrument(s). How are you guys using that word. Jim Ialeggio -- Jim Ialeggio    <a ymailto="mailto:jim@grandpianosolutions.com" href="javascript:return">jim@grandpianosolutions.com</a> 978 425-9026 Shirley Center, MA </td> </tr> </tbody> </table> </div> </div> </div>