<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"><tr><td valign="top" style="font: inherit;"><div>The swings in the older systems may have been partially due to inferior vapor barriers (or none) beneath the concrete --- if a concrete substrate it was. 6-mil plastic is now standard for this, but it did not even exist a short while back. This is another reason to be cautious about "climate controlled" storage facilities built out of old warehouses and such. Sure, the may have heat. But the concrete floor is wicking moisture through it from the ground like "nobody's bizness"! (Leave a box on it, for example, and all within will get moldy.) A wicking situation surely exacerbated by the addition of heating tubes. How this factor computes with regards to the diminished RH caused by indoor heat in Winter is far too much for this frail mind to encompass ( or want to try) but that may be a factor in such "swings". (Also affected by current ---and
variable--- ground humidity levels.)<br /><br />Thumpe</div></td></tr></table> <div id="_origMsg_">
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Joseph Giandalone <rufy@rcn.com>; <br>
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<pianotech@ptg.org>; <br>
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Re: [pianotech] Protection from underfloor heating <br>
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Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:26:22 AM <br>
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<td valign="top" style="font:inherit;"><BR>Thanks again, but I'm bowing out of the discussion. Not really interested enough to pursue it. Like I said in my previous post, the older homes where I noticed in-floor heating seemed to have extreme yearly humidity swings. You've given me some plausible reasons for this, which satisfies my curiosity. I'm sure the newer systems are better. I'm a piano guy, not a heating guy.<BR><BR>Joseph<BR><BR>On Dec 13, 2012, at 9:52 AM, Jim Ialeggio wrote:<BR><BR>> Joseph wrote:<BR>> <BR>> <I was indeed referring to the "mid-summer" compared to "mid-winter" differential<BR>> <BR>> I'd like to try and get a better sense of what is, could be or isn't happening with these system regarding pianos and piano stability. I'm curious whether the reports of piano instability caused by in floor systems are caused by the unfamiliarity effect, or whether the reports are a real
effect. This means I'd like to compare any apparent detrimental effects in a fair comparison with other heating systems.<BR>> <BR>> In reading posts on this subject over a number of years, a warning sign goes off instantly in my head. It's the "unfamiliar-thus-suspect" warning sign. According to the negative reports on in-floor heating, one might infer that other heating systems do not present stability issues to pianos. With the exception of wood stoves, traditional heating is never directly fingered as a threat to piano stability, but rather in traditionally heated buildings, the occupants are not maintaining appropriate interior conditions for piano stability. In-floor heating, on the other hand is fingered directly as the culprit, rather than the home system or the occupants responsibility to maintain appropriate ambient climate.<BR>> <BR>> Is this a bias favoring the familiar or is it a reasonable bias?<BR>> <BR>> I find a
striking disconnect between technician reports on the aggressiveness of infloor heat regarding piano seasonal stability and piano soundboard/pinlock health, and both the technical research and on site installed experience gathered by the heating industry professionals and researchers on these systems. Over the last 20 yrs the in-floor systems have exhibited significant advantages over traditional systems. In-floor systems have proven to be more comfortable, gentle, and allergen friendly than any of the traditional heating options, providing even temperatures, much less vertical temp striation, and allowing the occupied spaces to be kept at lower temperatures(thus easier to maintain higher RH) than their convective/forced counterparts. <a href="http://legalett.ca/Radiant_Floor_Heating_in_Theory_and_Practice.pdf" target=_blank >http://legalett.ca/Radiant_Floor_Heating_in_Theory_and_Practice.pdf</a><BR>> <BR>> So Joseph, as a starting place,
and others please contribute as well, could you specify what you find when you show up to tune pianos in these homes after the heat kicks in or shuts down for the season...in terms of sharp/flat cents swings, unison disintegration, pin block behavior, soundboard compression ridges/splits, etc. Others who have not experienced stability swings also please make yourselves known. Lets hold off on any conclusions, but try to specify what symptoms, positive or negative we techs are specifically finding when they approach a piano in a in floor heated space.<BR>> <BR>> In the spirit of taking the information where it takes us, I'll start, with my own experience.<BR>> <BR>> My own grand, Chickering122, 5' grand, my own new re-manufacture (new rib crowned board, block, the works), full DC, floor length cover always covering instrument when I'm not playing, in my living room with in-floor heat.<BR>> <BR>> Last tuned june 2012. Using an
ETD...Stoppers Only Pure...which I used when I tuned it in June, the cents offsets from where I put it in June are A2 (-)3cents, A3 (-)0.6cents, A4 (+)0.4 cents, A5 (+)2.2 cents, A6 (-)1cent, A7 (-)9 cents A1 is (-) 12 cents, from the program, but I don't agree with the ETDs on wound strings, so my stretches in the bass (A1, A2) are not Stopper's. I will quantify where I put these in the future for further reference. Piano needs a tuning (which I've been too busy to get to), as unisons have strayed unacceptably for my very picky ear. No wild unisons, but more movement than I find acceptable, and accomanying increased harshness in the treble. I did notice that the unisons strayed more noticeably as the heat kicked in full time. Initial RH of the house drops over the course of 2 weeks or so as the heat kicks in.<BR>> <BR>> Current RH December 13, 1 new pocket meter says 49% @ 63f. An older digital says 51% @ 67f.<BR>> <BR>>
<BR>> Jim Ialeggio<BR>> <BR>> -- <BR>> Jim Ialeggio <BR>> <a ymailto="mailto:jim@grandpianosolutions.com" href="javascript:return">jim@grandpianosolutions.com</a><BR>> 978 425-9026<BR>> Shirley Center, MA<BR>> <BR><BR></td>
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