<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"><tr><td valign="top" style="font: inherit;"><div>P.S. I would not, personally, consider the minimal glue line between a bridge cap and root to be an audibly discernible impediment to vibration transmission (and let's not call it "sound transmission", please: because "sound" is the neurological sensation caused by our ears' diaphragms being oscillated by vibrations in the air!) even if the softest glue were used. BUT consider it commendable that in the "golden age" of piano construction (defined here as the heyday of its economic primacy) when every possible "trick" was employed, in a highly competitive market, to squeeze out even minuscule advantages, tonally (even theoretical ones) that such factors as relative speed of transmission of vibration through wood according to grain orientation (as in vertically laminated bridges) was apparently respected. Factors that SEPARATELY might not result in
an audibly discernible difference. But that, en masse, just might.<br /><br />Thumpe<br /><br /><br />P.P.S. And I highly suspect that the derisive, mocking, patently unfriendly, distinctly un-humble, know-it-all attitude displayed by a few on this list would be MOST unwelcome in the workplace of one of our fine piano manufactories, in that 1880-1915 era!</div></td></tr></table> <div id="_origMsg_">
<div style="font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif:font-size:10pt">
<br />
<div style="font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt">
<font size="2" face="Tahoma">
<hr size="1">
<b>
<span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span>
</b>
Euphonious Thumpe <lclgcnp@yahoo.com>; <br>
<b>
<span style="font-weight:bold:">To:</span>
</b>
<pianotech@ptg.org>; <br>
<b>
<span style="font-weight:bold:">Subject:</span>
</b>
Re: [pianotech] Totally glueless <br>
<b>
<span style="font-weight:bold;">Sent:</span>
</b>
Thu, Jan 31, 2013 12:13:17 PM <br>
</font>
<br>
<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td valign="top" style="font:inherit;"><table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"><tr><td valign="top" style="font:inherit;"><div> Nice bunch of facts, Ron, and nifty, derisive denigration,* Terry... but then how is it, if we follow your contention that so dismisses the "vibration through matter" conception, that a tuning fork can be held against the very LEG of a piano, and the soundboard still renders it's oscillations into audible tone??? (And strings also vibrate sympathetically, when the dampers are lifted, thus proving that the vibrations of the fork have passed through the solid structure to them --- unlike a shout, for example, that would more strongly cause the board to vibrate first, being vibrations passed through the air, and then the strings along with it.) Surely you would not contend that the tiny ball on the base of that fork, placed so very remotely, is "pushing and
pulling" the distant soundboard to create this audible tone?<br /> What confuses me the
most, though, and what is most disturbing and unhelpful to what one would consider the desired "tone" of this list for the convivial sharing of facts and opinion, is you chaps' apparent unwillingness to accept that perhaps ANYTHING happens beyond the purview of your current comprehension. (And, as it relates to the subject at hand, that maybe just maybe BOTH phenomena transpire.) And your obvious, often indulged in compulsion to meanly ridicule others, which MOST nescient beings would consider a very grave personality flaw which undermines your authority on all other matters, as it pertains to issues far more momentous than mere piano repair.<br /><br />Thumpe<br /><br />*Not that there is any other type. But I liked the alliteration!</div></td></tr></table> <div id="_origMsg_">
<div style="font-family:arial, helvetica,;">
<br />
<div style="font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt;">
<font size="2" face="Tahoma">
<hr size="1">
<b>
<span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span>
</b>
Ron Nossaman <rnossaman@cox.net>; <br>
<b>
<span style="">To:</span>
</b>
<pianotech@ptg.org>; <br>
<b>
<span style="">Subject:</span>
</b>
Re: [pianotech] Totally glueless <br>
<b>
<span style="font-weight:bold;">Sent:</span>
</b>
Thu, Jan 31, 2013 4:05:42 AM <br>
</font>
<br>
<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td valign="top" style="font:inherit;">On 1/30/2013 8:41 PM, Terry Farrell wrote:<br>> Good Grief! Common sense????? I always wonder with polite<br>> questioning in my mind when I hear tech talk about transmissions and<br>> vibrations shooting this way and that way - along bridges, along<br>> ribs, etc., etc.<br>> <br>> The theory that "strings move the bridge and the bridge moves the<br>> soundboard" is the only thing that makes any sense to me. Why else do<br>> we have "vibrations" zinging this way and that, through this<br>> structure and that, bla, bla, bla. And then there is conversation<br>> about the rim - vibrations reflecting off the rim and back into the<br>> field of music (somewhere in the soundboard). What's that all about?<br>> I suspect it has some origin in the "sound collector"........<br>> <br>> :-(<br>> <br>>
Terry Farrell<br><br><br>I've
explained this on list three or four times already, but it's something that needs to be looked at realistically, so I'll take yet another pass at the windmill in hopes that someone will get it.<br><br>Look up the speed of sound in maple. you'll find something around 14,000 feet per second along the fiber, and something in the 4000 fps range across grain, give or take depending on grain orientation. Okay, so pick a note, say A-440. In 0.00227 seconds (1/440), the string completes one cycle at the fundamental. In that time, the impulse of the push of the string on the bridge will travel approximately 0.9 feet down through the bridge, which puts it half way to the floor and clear out of the piano before the next cycle even starts. In other words, no vibration, but a slow push followed by a slow pull. Along the bridge, that impulse will travel about 32 feet, which again puts it well outside the piano before the 440 string even completes one
cycle. Adjust
the frequencies to those found in the bass, and the concept of vibrations in the bridge gets as distant as the numbers generated. Once the initial pulse moves the bridge, the bridge, by moving, moves all the other strings attached to it. It also moves the soundboard, which moves the other bridge and all the rest of the strings. The complexity of the result comes from the interaction of all the moving strings and how they collectively push and pull on the bridge at a huge number of different frequencies, not from little vibrations in the bridge turning corners and reflecting off of glue joints or bouncing around in the bottom of the hole under an un-seated bridge pin. This doesn't make the whole thing predictable in great detail any more than speculating on what the molecules are doing, but I think it's a far more rational description of the basic action.<br><br>People have an absolute genius for complicating anything and everything and feel
compelled to
invent detailed explanations whether they have any facts or logic to work with or not. It's intuitive, instinctive, and fundamentally irrational. It's also nearly universal. "I've heard", "I was taught", "I believe", "it's obvious", "simply", and "stands to reason" are the enemies. Innate contradictions like the glue joint blocking sound, while a loose joint not passing vibrations because there was no glue with the screws, should be questioned. Bridge laminations must be continuous through the length of the bridge is another one, when it's been demonstrated by people building bridges with discontinuous laminations with no apparent audible penalty.<br><br>That's the bare bones pitch so far, until a more sensible basic explanation comes along.<br><br>Ron N<br></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
</div>
</div>
</div>