<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; = charset=iso-8859-1"> <META content="MSHTML 5.50.4134.600" name=GENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=#ffffff> <DIV><FONT color=#800080 size=2></FONT> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #800080 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B> <A title=pianotuna@yahoo.com = href="mailto:pianotuna@yahoo.com">Don</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A = title=pianotech@ptg.org href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> June 08, 2001 1:34 = AM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: soundboards = improving with age? or what else?</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <TABLE width="100%"> <TBODY> <TR> <TD vAlign=top> <DIV align=left>Hi Del,<BR> <BR>You are right that pianos = are not violins. However,<BR>are you suggesting that the top and bottom "plates"<BR>(i.e. sound board) don't vibrate on a violin acting = as<BR>a transducer--just like a piano sound board is a<BR>transducer? = </DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#800080 = size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#800080 size=2>Yes, but that's = about where the similarities end. As you say, the four strings of the violin = have a total tension of somewhere around 80 pounds (about 36 = kgf.), on the piano its typically between 35,000 and 50,000 (about 15,900 to = 22,700 kgf.). The downforce from the string plane of the piano = against the soundboard is between 250 lbs 750 lbs. (115 and 340 kgf.) I = don't know--have never had the need to figure it out--the down force = against the bridge of a violin but it's going to be some very small = fraction of that. That alone separates the two. = </FONT><BR> <BR></DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#800080 = size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV align=left>I agree there are many differences--but it is = not Oil<BR>and water as you seem to indicate.</DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#800080 = size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#800080 size=2>Well, as you = say...they are both wood and they both vibrate. The list of their structural = and operational differences is some longer.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#800080 size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#800080 size=2></FONT><FONT color=#800080 = size=2></FONT><FONT color=#800080 size=2></FONT><FONT = color=#800080 size=2></FONT><FONT color=#800080 size=2></FONT><FONT = color=#800080 size=2></FONT><BR> <BR>There has been some research done = on how violin plates<BR>vibrate in free air. So far as I know there = have been<BR>none done on pianos. Surely both do vibrate, and = both<BR>are wood. It would seem prudent to at least look at the<BR>research = for similarities.</DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#800080 = size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#800080 size=2>Oh, I do = whenever I come across them. But I don't really seek them out.</FONT></DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#800080 = size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#800080 size=2>Similar studies = have been done with the piano soundboard--many of them--but they don't = tell us much about how the real-world piano works. That is not the = normal environment of the piano soundboard. The piano soundboard = (typically) has its entire parameter glued to a relatively solid and massive = rim in what amounts to a clamped-edge configuration. (The mounting of = the violin top is closer to a hinged-end configuration) = </FONT></DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#800080 = size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#800080 size=2>Piano = soundboards have also been studied glued to the rim but not loaded with all those = awkward strings--the plate and strings get in the way of the test = equipment, you know. Some time back I read through the report of a researcher = who did some extensive modal analysis on a grand piano soundboard. Tens = of thousands of dollars were spent on this analysis, but in the end = the information, while of much academic interest, was of no = practical value to the manufacturer who had paid the bill. The entire = analysis was done using an unloaded soundboard. Things just change too much = once the strings go on. </FONT></DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#800080 = size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#800080 size=2>And it's not = just the loading of the soundboard by the string downforce. We also have to = consider the interaction between the soundboard/bridge and the string plane. = There are just a whole lot of things going on there and all of them = are going on simultaneously. </FONT><FONT color=#800080 size=2>The = vibrating characteristics of the soundboard panel and assembly change so = much between its freely suspended condition and its more normal = clamped and loaded condition as to make all of these studies = academically interesting but practically useless. </FONT></DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#800080 = size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#800080 size=2>There are also = some limited studies that have been done using loaded soundboards, all of = them using vertical pianos--it's easier to get at the soundboard in a = vertical. We're finally getting on the right track.</FONT></DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#800080 = size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#800080 size=2>I am sure that = the studies done on violin tops are certainly interesting and they surely = tell the researcher much about how the violin top vibrates in free air. = But I must wonder just how much that reveal about how that same top = performs when it is fully assembled, the instrument is strung and played. = In the case of the piano soundboard it's like the = difference between oil and water.</FONT><BR></DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#800080 = size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV align=left> <BR>I do agree whole heartedly that the = sound production<BR>is *different*. A high tension piano vs a low tension<BR>fiddle. (about 80 lbs total tension on a fiddle btw). <BR> <BR><FONT color=#800080 size=2>Yup. = they are different.</FONT></DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#800080 = size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#800080 = size=2>Regards,</FONT></DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#800080 = size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#800080 = size=2>Del</FONT></DIV></TD> <TD vAlign=top width=133> <CENTER><A target=_blank = href="http://www.mailround.com/servlets/RedirectServlet?request=stamp= Redir&BrandId=991988805532&url=http://multi1.rmuk.co.uk/RealM= edia/ads/click_lx.ads/www.mailround.com/Send/27980/Top/Mailround.com/serv= ista/servista_002.gif/64346131366430373362316239666130"></A></CENTER> <P><FONT face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" = size=1>Stamp powered by <A target=_blank = href="http://www.mailround.com/?s=mrb&c=cmrb&x=xmadeby&am= p;p=mrb-cmrb-xmadeby&BrandId=991988805532">www.mailround.com </A><BR><BR><A target=_blank = href="http://www.mailround.com/servlets/RedirectServlet?s=mry&c== cmry&x=xjoin&p=mry-cmry-xjoin&request=stampRedir&Br= andId=991988805532&url=http://www.yoptin.net/MLR/UK.MLR.001.211M.= /">Click here</A> to join YOPTIN and WIN COOL PRIZES </FONT></P></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>