<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; = charset=iso-8859-1"> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1264" name=GENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#800000 size=2>Comments interspersed below:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#800000 size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#800000 size=2>Terry = Farrell</FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B> <A title=sarah@gendernet.org = href="mailto:sarah@gendernet.org">Sarah Fox</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A = title=pianotech@ptg.org href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">Pianotech</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, January 14, = 2004 9:19 PM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Where did the RH = Go</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hi Terry,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I understand DC's contacts are rated = at 15A (about 1600+ W), so 35W is hardly a significant load.  However, = I'd be concerned about a running a dehumidifier straight off of such a humidistat.  I bet the average electrical load for a = dehumidifier is 500W running, which would correspond to about 1500W at startup -- = perhaps enough to fry the contacts.  Dunno.... Check the = ratings!</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#800000 size=2>The rating on my old = dehumidifier was 600 watts. I don't know much about electricity. The startup thing = may well be of concern. Mine worked fine for about a year, but perhaps I was = lucky. Maybe some other humidistat would work better.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The prospect of running a room = humidifier from an under-piano humidistat is appealing.  I would be cautious not to = run it opposite the dehumidifier bars, though.  A situation would arise = in which both the temperature and humidity would rise in an = inverse-compensatory fashion.  </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#800000 size=2>If I were to install = a DC-type system on a piano, I would put the humidistat under the piano. If I = were to run a room dehumidifier or room humidifier off some type of = humidistat, the humidistat would be placed somewhere in the room where it would = get a good representative flow of room air to it - it would NOT be located = in/under a piano!</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>At the same time, the room would get = quite nice and steamy.  ;-)  I would think it best to switch seasonally = between humidification and dehumidification modes, disabling one side or the other.  Of course I think running heater bars opposite buckets in = a full DC installation is a bit silly as well.  If the piano owner is = capable of such technical matters, it would be better to have him/her buy a cheap = hygrometer and switch the system back and forth (or plug/unplug) = according to humidification/dehumidification needs.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>In the end, I = think the most trouble-free, no-brains system is the one I have.  The heater = system under the piano takes care of the microcontrol with its own = humidistat.  I leave it on constantly, throughout the year.  Then as ambient = humidity drops below 45%, I run a humidifier on its own = humidistat (not under the piano), so as to maintain the ambient humidity at 45% (the = upper end of the under-piano system's operating cycle), or as high a humidity as = won't create a problem with regard to window/wall condensation (currently 38 = or 39%).  DC buckets may be an attractive option in extreme climates where the outside temperature gets so brutally low that the interior RH can't be maintained at a = high enough level without condensation.  The climate here in Ohio may be = borderline, as 38 or 39% seems to be my limit right now.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#800000 size=2>I think you are = likely right. Install an appropriate DC system on the piano, and cut down on the = room RH extremes with room humidification/dehumidification. I would be = curious to witness the effectiveness of a complete DC system installation with = back covers and the whole shebang in an extreme environment.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I haven't tried this yet, but in the = spring I will be running a dehumidifier downstairs on a timer (night-time = running only, for considerations of noise), so as to drag the household = humidity a bit lower.  I'm convinced the materials of the house hold = considerable moisture and therefore serve as an intermediate</FONT><FONT = face=Arial size=2>-term humidity buffer.  This would explain why it took = so long for me to dehumidify a wet cargo trailer -- and why the RH would = shoot up within minutes of my shutting off the dehumidifier until I finally got = all the excess moisture out of it.  The entire process took a few = days.  It was utterly amazing how much water that wood cold hold!</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#800000 size=2>Absolutely! Once in a = while, even when it is high RH outside, like when I might be spraying lacquer in = my shop, I will open windows and turn on my exhaust fan. The RH will shoot up = to near whatever it is outside - let's say 80%. I haven't timed it, but within = an hour or two after closing the windows, the shop RH will be right back down = to 45% or so - very quickly. I don't know how much wood I have in my shop, = but I'm quite sure at least several thousand. At 8% MC, those 3,000 lbs. of = wood would contain 240 lbs. of water, or about 30 gallons. About every 7% or 8% = change in shop RH, will, over enough time, cause about a 1% change in EMC in the = wood, or will add or remove 24 lbs. of water, or about 3 gallons of water.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#800000 size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#800000 size=2>Now, it's too early = in the morning for me to calculate the volume of water in my 7,000 cubic-foot shop. = But if anyone wants to, calculate the volume of water in the shop at let's = say 45% RH (70 degrees), and then calculate the change in water volume in the = shop air with a rise to 75% RH (or whatever). Then you can easily see how easy = it would be for the wood to absorb/desorb this volume of water. I suspect the = numbers would make it quite clear that the wood in the shop (or the carpet and = furniture and walls, etc. in a home) will serve as a pretty effective buffer.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#800000 size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#800000 size=2>And I guess one would = want to consider the rate at which the wood will absorb/desorb = water........... (yawn.....)</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#800000 size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#800000 size=2>Terry = Farrell</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Peace,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Sarah</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B> <A title=mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com href="mailto:mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com">Farrell</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A = title=pianotech@ptg.org href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">Pianotech</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, January 14, = 2004 8:04 PM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Where did the RH = Go</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><BR></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I have a Sears basement-style = humidifier in my shop with and "electronic" humidistat. It is quite accurate - I'm = really pleased with it. The older dehumidifier I had before this one had a = garbage humidistat - that is why is ran it off the DC H2 unit. I your = humidifier has a functional humidistat, then that is great. The H2 unit may be = something to consider for someone that has a humidifier or = dehumidifier that is not equipped with a decent humidistat - BUT, no reason to place = the H2 under the piano! Put it out in the room where it can do its job in = keeping the room at the desired RH level.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Terry Farrell</FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- = </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B> <A title=sarah@gendernet.org = href="mailto:sarah@gendernet.org">Sarah Fox</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A = title=pianotech@ptg.org href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">Pianotech</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, January = 14, 2004 7:37 PM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Where did the = RH Go</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hi Terry,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I use a Kenmore model 42.14125 = unit, which has its own internal humidistat (so current draw is not a limitation).  The total draw of the system is quite low, = at 37W (0.33A), so it could be plugged into a DC humidistat -- or the GE humidistat I use.  The default humidity setpoint is something = like 60%RH, so it would cycle on and off satisfactorily with the = under-piano humidistat.  There are much cheaper ultrasonic units that = don't have humidistats.  These would be even better suited for being = switched on and off by the under-piano humidistat -- at the end of a very long = extension cord, of course!  :-)</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Peace,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Sarah</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- = </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B> <A title=mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com href="mailto:mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com">Farrell</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A = title=pianotech@ptg.org href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">Pianotech</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, January = 14, 2004 7:01 PM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Where did = the RH Go</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>What type of room humidifier = are you using? How many watts does it use? I think the H2 humidistats are rated = up to 600 watts. I have ran a Sears basement-type dehumidifier off a humidistat in the past. That would solve your troubles for when = you travel.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Terry Farrell</FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: = 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- = </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B> <A title=anrebe@zianet.com = href="mailto:anrebe@zianet.com">Andrew & Rebeca Anderson</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A = title=pianotech@ptg.org href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">Pianotech</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, = January 14, 2004 10:34 AM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Where did = the RH Go</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV>My wife and I regulate humidity (in winter) = through the whole house with two humidifiers and a gauge on a bookshelf by = the piano.  This requires some attentiveness, and is affected = by outdoor weather.  The problem comes when we travel.  = We were away over the holidays for two weeks and when we returned the = humidity was in the high single digits.  The piano sounded = horrible.  We got humidity up in a few days and in two weeks I = retuned.  We have developed a rather low-tolerance for out-of-tune.  = <BR>The issue is practicality.  Most customers will not go = through the trouble of monitering RH and refilling, turning on/off their humidifiers on a daily basis.  Once a piano is up to = humidity, the DC will usually last a week often more, it only has a = small environment to keep-up.  The humidity migrates through = the wood, even in a grand piano pin torque is affected (closed lids do = help in extreme environments).  Buying a room humidifier that has = a remote-control humidistat will cost more than a DC system, = although it would benefit all the wooden furniture too.  I have = discussed this with clients and some have chosen to get a cheap = hardware-store hygrometer and start running a room humidifier.  They = last about halfway to the next tuning and then want a DC system or = believe they can tolerate the effects on the piano.<BR><BR>Andrew = Anderson<BR>Las Cruces, NM<BR><BR>At 06:40 AM 1/13/2004 -0500, you wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE class=cite cite="" type="cite"><FONT = face=arial>I don't think anyone is questioning the effects of RH changes on the = tuning of a piano.</FONT><BR> <BR><FONT face=arial>I'm with = Sarah and feel that proper full environment humidity control is the = best way to go - better than a full DC installation.</FONT><BR> <BR><FONT face=arial>I think = where the arguement comes in is the fact that probably 99% of full = environment humidity control systems are improperly designed, poorly functioning, turned off and windows opened up, turned off = over the holidays and summer, etc., etc. <BR> <BR>But this does = not change the fact that if one installs a proper full = environment humidity control system that holds the RH constant within a = few percent, it will be more effective than a full DC.<BR></FONT> <BR><FONT face=arial>And don't forget = that even if you hard-wire the DC system into the wall, who is ever = going to notice that the circuit breaker tripped 15 months ago and = the piano hasn't had any humidity control since that time?</FONT><BR> <BR><FONT face=arial>In my shop I = have a Sears basement-type dehumidifier. It keeps the shop right at 45% = RH (within a percent or two). I never varies. How in the world = is a DC unit on a piano in my shop going to work better, or do = anything at all besides vapor, dry, vapor, dry, vapor, dry, etc., etc.?</FONT><BR> <BR><FONT face=arial>So I guess the = bottom line is that if one is willing to set up a proper full = environment humidity control system that holds the RH constant within a = few percent, that is the best way to go. From a practical = standpoint, knowing that 90-some% of full environment humidity control = systems are not going to be real effective, the full DC-type system = is the way to go (they DO work quite well). And as someone pointed = out, from a practical standpoint a full DC-type system in a piano = which is in an environment modified by a full environment humidity = control systems is the best around. </FONT><BR> <BR><FONT face=arial>Flame Suite Tighly = Zipped,</FONT><BR> <BR><FONT face=arial>Terry Farrell</FONT><BR> <BR><FONT = face=arial size=2>----- Original Message ----- </FONT><BR><FONT = face=arial size=2>From: "DIANE HOFSTETTER" <<A = href="mailto:dianepianotuner@msn.com">dianepianotuner@msn.com</A>></= FONT><BR><FONT face=arial size=2>To: <<A = href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</A>></FONT><BR><FO= NT face=arial size=2>Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2004 2:51 AM</FONT><BR><FONT face=arial size=2>Subject: Re: Where = did the RH Go</FONT><BR><FONT face=arial><BR></FONT><FONT = face=arial size=2>> Sarah,<BR>> <BR>> For fourteen years now = my partner and I have been measuring and graphing the <BR>> = tuning on every piano immediately before we tune it.   We = also record the <BR>> relative humidity and temperature most = of the time, whether it has a <BR>> Damppchaser installation or = not, and if it is functioning correctly.<BR>> <BR>> Then when = we next tune the piano and record all the data again, we have a = <BR>> way of understanding how to service the piano to make the tuning = as stable <BR>> as possible.<BR>> <BR>> Over the years = I have had fun with a variety of experiments.  One day I = <BR>> arrived to tune a piano in a room that is routinely kept = unheated with no <BR>> climate control in the piano.  The = maintenance people had just turned on the <BR>> heat before I arrived = and a stream of warm area was shooting out of the <BR>> = register about ten feet away.<BR>> <BR>> I was dismayed; the heat = should have been turned on hours before.  I knew <BR>> the = tuning could not be reliable.  I went ahead and graphed the = tuning.  As <BR>> soon as I finished that graph, I remeasured the = tuning and graphed it again. <BR>>   Then I remeasured and = regraphed, and then once again.  I ended up with a = <BR>> graph showing four distinctly separate lines of the tuning = as it changed <BR>> with the relative humidity and temperature = for each line carefully recorded.<BR>> <BR>> There is no = question in my mind that changes in relative humidity affect the <BR>> = tuning dramatically and that a Damppchaser system does an excellent = job of <BR>> helping control that.  I have numerous graphs = to show it does.<BR>> <BR>> Diane<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> = <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> Diane Hofstetter<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> = <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> >From: "Sarah Fox" <<A = href="mailto:sarah@gendernet.org">sarah@gendernet.org</A>><BR>> >Reply-To: Pianotech <<A = href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</A>><BR>> >To: "Pianotech" <<A = href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</A>><BR>> >Subject: Re: Where did the RH Go<BR>> >Date: Mon, = 12 Jan 2004 21:48:30 -0500<BR>> ><BR>> >Hi Don,<BR>> = ><BR>> > > I did not say your system didn't = work. What I said was a DC system would<BR>> > > work even better.<BR>> ><BR>> >Perhaps.  Perhaps = not.  I don't mean to be argumentative on this point.  <BR>> = >I'm<BR>> >really asking a question here:  = Have you (or has anyone else) done<BR>> >measurements with a = good, accurate hygrometer on a complete DC grand<BR>> = >installation, during dry ambient conditions, showing that humidity is = <BR>> >indeed<BR>> >evenly distributed all over the = soundboard, both under and on top, and in<BR>> >the action = cavity?  Also, have the same measurements been done inside = the<BR>> >piano with a closed lid and inside the action cavity = during predominantly<BR>> >dehumidifying periods?  In = other words, are DC's claims fully <BR>> = >substantiated,<BR>> >as determined empirically with a hygrometer?  I've = heard lots of claims<BR>> >regarding stability of = pitch.  That's all well and good, of course.<BR>> >However, = how well does the DC system regulate humidity (in contrast to<BR>> = >pitch)?<BR>> ><BR>> > > I do recommend = room type humdifiers as well--but only to "assist" a DC<BR>> > = > unit. If it is a choice of one or the other the DC provides = much better<BR>> > > year round control than is = generally possible with a room type. There <BR>> >are<BR>> = > > exceptions, but they are very rare.<BR>> ><BR>> = >This sounds like a reasonable approach.<BR>> ><BR>> > = > Do you have measurements for the summer time? Where I am I have = <BR>> >documented<BR>> > > as low as 4% and = as high as 84%.<BR>> ><BR>> >Without humidification, = humidity levels inside my house vary from 27% in <BR>> = >the<BR>> >winter to 67% in the late fall.  I have forced heat = and refrigerated A/C,<BR>> >BTW.  I suspect humidity = levels are far different in other parts of the<BR>> = >state.  I'm in Central Ohio.  In the lake areas, humidity is undoubtedly<BR>> >much higher during moderate = weather.  Also, I have no idea what humidity<BR>> >levels occur = in other people's homes here in Columbus.  (I don't = service<BR>> >their pianos. <grin>)<BR>> ><BR>> > = > I would love to have a controller for a DC type system that = had much<BR>> > > narrower limits. I know, for example, = that rare bird hatcheries have <BR>> >units<BR>> > = > that are calibrated to 1/10 of one percent humidity that power = an<BR>> > > "electronic" fan (read no blades--some sort of = vibrating plate) combined<BR>> > > with an ultrasonic = humidifer. I'd love to get my pinkies on one!<BR>> ><BR>> = >Well, I can't boast 0.1% limits with my system (WOW!!), but I do = quite a <BR>> >bit<BR>> >better than the specs DC = boasts.  I did a 100% non-DC-brand installation on<BR>> >my = concert grand, using a GE humidistat that cycles the system adjustably<BR>> >between 40 - 44% (or occasionally as = widely as 39 - 45%) when the ambient <BR>> >RH<BR>> >is = in the upper 40's.  The installation is fairly recent, so I = haven't yet<BR>> >been able to observe its behavior at higher = humidity levels.  I'll give you<BR>> >an update in the = spring if you're interested.<BR>> ><BR>> >Peace,<BR>> >Sarah<BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> >_______________________________________________<BR>> >pianotech list info: <A = href="https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives">http://www.ptg.org= /mailman/listinfo/pianotech</A></FONT><BR><FONT face=arial size=2>> <BR>> = _________________________________________________________________<BR>>= Scope out the new MSN Plus Internet Software - optimizes = dial-up to the max! <BR>>    <A = href="http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=byoa/plus&ST= =1">http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=byoa/plus&ST== 1</A></FONT><BR><FONT face=arial size=2>> <BR>> _______________________________________________<BR>> = pianotech list info: <A = href="https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives">http://www.ptg.org= /mailman/listinfo/pianotech</A></FONT><BR><FONT face=arial size=2>> = </FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><= /BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>