<HTML>In a message dated 12/24/02 1:47:30 AM Central Standard Time, remoody@midstatesd.net writes: <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">I tuned was a straight Pythagorean.  I was surprised at how music still sounded like music.  There are pure "3rds" in Pythagorean even.  That is the most extreme temperament in that every 5th is pure leaving one wolf.  If the wolf occurs, yes I can hear it.     That lead me to wonder just how much out of tune it takes to make the music different enough to  be objectionable or sound different enough to be preferable.  You look at Meantone with 11 5ths flattened twice as much as ET and you might think THAT might sound awful, but in fact something happens where the beating 5ths are obscured by pure 3rds and in the "close keys" chordal music such as hymns, carols, and folk music sounds beautiful.  There are 4 wolves in Meantone so when they occur, yes I do hear the difference but   Meantone is only to be used in certain keys for its optimum effect.  I could probably pick out MT "blind" but haven't able to set up the test. >but if there are any > sustained chords it becomes obvious.  A C-major triad in a Young is > quite different from ET and obvious if it is sustained any time at > all.  When I listened to the 2nd movement of the Pathetique on Ed's > Temperament CD it was so obvious I couldn't continue listening. I listened to it following the score even.  To be fair I would have to make sure to listen to the second movement of Pathetique again.   Everything I heard I could not tell.  I was especially eager to hear the second movement of Moonlight because I can play some of that and it has lots of chords where  HT's are supposed to make the most difference.  Again nothing, and as a tuner I ended up listening to unisons and bass octaves.  It simply did not sound "different" at all,  and  for sure not different enough to say I could pick it out in a blind test. This was the first recorded HT I had heard (that I know of).   And it has led me to believe I may be deficient hearing the "tonality" or "color" or intonation differences caused by other than ET.  I am pretty sure I can recognize MT.   If it is true that some are more sensitive to this tonality, do you think it can be taught to others who are not?   Would be like teaching harmony to singers.     Or is it like trying to teach to sing those who are "tone deaf".   Some tone deaf can't sing but appreciate and can tell when a song is sung in tune  or in good harmony.   Do you think it is the same with "temperament deaf".     Is this a phenomenon that can be demonstrated by blindly" picking out piano music on recordings from those that are in ET? If 3 versions of second Movement Path are played how many people can pick out the one in HT?  If six are played and 3 are ET and 3 are HT, how many can tell the difference blind? Do you think this would be a suitable demonstration for a class or exhibit at the "National".    Play 5 examples of ET and 5 examples of HT had poll the participants?   One could burn examples onto one CD and randomly select the tracks.   Perhaps this could be set up on a web site. > While I, personally, still prefer ET on my piano, I will > gladly tune any of the 77 non-ET tunings I have on my hard drive for > a customer. And I can certainly tell the difference. > > dave > </BLOCKQUOTE> Also...> The fact that you can put 10 high quality pianists in a room with 10 > different temperaments and find that they can not really hear the > difference when someone plays them doesnt really say very much. To me it says temperament doen't matter much.  --rm A few things about what Ric says:  In MT the 5ths are narrowed (not flatted) by nearly 3 times the amount they are in ET, not just twice as much.  This often drives a Tuner who has previously only tuned ET absolutely bonkers.  Yet, as Ric observes, that horrible sound is "absorbed" in actual music. I have seen over and over again these same comments and arguments, especially the desire on the part of the Tuner to get all of the 5ths (and octaves too) pure.  Here is my theory:  When you are standing there *banging* on that interval, it sounds best to you when get it pure, yes, but you have to remember that the final product must be a compromise.  If you are tuning a WT, you can have *some* of the 5ths pure and that does give the piano a certain character but I never consider that to be the most important quality of a temperament. You can, after all, tune a Modified Meantone Temperament (MMT) where *none* of the 5ths are pure, some are even widened and have a beautiful end result.  This goes for octaves too.  I have, for 20 years worked on octaves and can say with all certainty that the very best compromise involves octaves of all different sizes throughout the piano (regardless of chosen temperament), just as the best compromise involves all different sizes of 3rds and 5ths. Of course, there are some people who are still in their *early* stages of experimentation but who believe that whatever they discover *today* must be the bees knees: (I said), "If the temperament you are using has irregularly tempered intervals, does it not also make sense that you may want to "temper" your octaves a little differently as well? " (and the response was), No,  that doesn't make any sense... But a while later, that same person was really polishing his apple... "I intentionally sharpened the last octave of a Steinway D with my SAT last week.  I punched up the octave stretch so that the last note was 20 cents sharper than a straight FAC tuning.  NOBODY noticed!!!!!"   If one really believes that "temperament doesn't matter" (nor do octaves), then there should be a "Temperament Doesn't Matter Festival" at the National.  Line up a bunch of pianos, tune them all in any random way, play a bunch of music on each and say to yourself, "I couldn't tell one from the other" and you'll prove your point. I sure as heck know the difference, one from the other and so do most HT practitioners.  On one hand, there are the ET only die-hards who, at the very slightest irregularity will say, "That's out of tune!".  They truly believe they are right and have *right* on their side to dictate to all others the one and only way to tune, *their* way. On the other hand, there are those who believe that it is still and open book.  No matter what is done, it will offend someone, somewhere, somehow.  I accept that and keep on doing what I do, recalling the words of the great Blues pianist, Mose Allison, "I don't worry about a thing 'cause I know *nothing's* going to be all right". Bill Bremmer RPT Madison, Wisconsin <A HREF="http://www.billbremmer.com/">Click here: -=w w w . b i l l b r e m m e r . c o m =-</A></HTML>