<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; = charset=iso-8859-1"> <META content="MSHTML 5.50.4522.1800" name=GENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=#ffffff> <DIV><FONT size=2>My training and tendency is to tune pure 2:1 octaves = in the last octave.  The theory being that the upper note will cause the = 2nd partial of the lower note to vibrate sympathetically and add to the = relative thinness of the last octave.  However, I also test the upper = octaves by playing an arpeggiated and open minor chord in 1st inversion with the = top note representing the doubled 5th of the chord.  In other words, if = you are testing C7, play Ab4, F5, C6 and C7.   C7 being the 5th, = 3rd and 2nd partial respectively of the other three notes. You can hear immediately if the C7 is a bit flat.  So in reality, the = upper octaves are stretched.  Many concert tuners stretch the upper end = of the piano a bit because the piano should feel like it's "taking off" a = bit as you go up the scale.  Also, because the decay is so fast I think = the perception (especially from the back of the hall) is of a flatter = pitch.  In the more intimate setting of one's living room, I think the = perception is different and I would personally aim for a more pure 2:1 keeping in mind = that flat is always more offensive than sharp.  There are clearly = different styles in this arena and I'm sure you will hear differing = opinions.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>David Love   </FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B> <A title=mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com href="mailto:mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com">Farrell</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A = title=pianotech@ptg.org href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> October 21, 2001 2:53 = PM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: more on this = temperament thing</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>Thanks for your comments David. I follow pretty much exactly what = you described in your post below when I tune. I usually test some sample = octaves all across the keyboard to get a feel for what I will be wanting to do = with the DOB. I have all of Jim Coleman's info and have studied it = extensively. When I said that I wonder what I should be doing with my octaves, I = was referring to the upper treble (as in your original post) and was = indicating that I know very little about upper treble stretch theory - why some = tuners stretch more than others, why some stretch a big piano on a stage more = than a small piano in a home. When techs are talking about these = various amounts of stretch, what are they doing with the amount of beating in = octaves and double and triple octaves way up in the high treble? Are we = talking only about putting a half or a quarter bpm in some type of octave, or lots = of beats or what? Any thoughts would be welcome.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Terry Farrell</DIV> <DIV> <SPAN id=__#Ath#SignaturePos__></SPAN> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B> <A title=davidlovepianos@earthlink.net href="mailto:davidlovepianos@earthlink.net">David Love</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A = title=pianotech@ptg.org href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, October 21, = 2001 2:50 PM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: more on this = temperament thing</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>As a general rule I am finding that small pianos = require an entry of -.5 on the DOB and as the pianos get bigger that number decreases.  But you can measure the stretch before you = start by tuning a double octave (after entering the FAC numbers and saving), = and testing aurally to see if it is where you want it.  The SAT = uses A4 as the fixed point so keep that in mind when you choose your test = double octave.  I usually try and test the double octave to not = include any wound strings.  If the double octave is too wide, input a = negative number on the DOB and change notes (step up, step down) to implement = the change.  Test again.  When you get it where you want it go = ahead and start tuning.  When tuning with the SAT I start in the = tenor and go up (when tuning aurally, I start from the temperament and go = down).  When I am done with the treble I usually direct tune the bass as the = machine sometimes has problems across the break and I don't always agree = with its choices for stretch in the bass.  Jim Coleman has made several contributions to the list regarding use of the DOB.  I = recommend you search the archives and check them out.  </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>David Love</FONT> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- = </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B> <A title=mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com href="mailto:mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com">Farrell</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A = title=pianotech@ptg.org href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> October 21, 2001 = 11:11 AM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: more on this = temperament thing</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>I would sure like to hear more on this topic. As a tuner = still on a steep learning curve, I wonder just what I should be doing with my = octaves, but I find that the SAT III is either right where I = wish it to be, or sometimes I do find that it seems to have calculated a = tuning with too much stretch, and I have to enter negative numbers in the = DOB to slow the beating down - occasionally quite a bit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Terry Farrell <SPAN = id=__#Ath#SignaturePos__></SPAN> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- = </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B> <A title=davidlovepianos@earthlink.net href="mailto:davidlovepianos@earthlink.net">David Love</A> = </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A = title=pianotech@ptg.org href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, October 21, = 2001 11:25 AM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: more on this = temperament thing</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>My experience suggests that C8 at 43+ is not = a conservative stretch but a fairly healthy one.  To my ear, = I usually reduce the stretch (on the SATIII via the = DOB).   On concert grands I seem to prefer it a bit under = 40.   On smaller grands and uprights, in the mid = 30's.  Of course the general scaling does make a difference.  = But generally I find the standard setting on a SATIII over stretches.  I am curious what other people = find.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>David Love</FONT> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: = 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- = </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B> <A title=dm.porritt@verizon.net href="mailto:dm.porritt@verizon.net">David M. Porritt</A> = </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A = title=pianotech@ptg.org href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> October 21, 2001 = 7:40 AM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: more on = this temperament thing</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>Bill:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You've talked quite a bit of your "tempered octaves" but = as one who has seen everything from 2:1 octaves to outrageously = stretched octaves I don't know what kind of stretch you're talking = about.  Could you give us some numbers so we can know what you mean by = tempered octaves?  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For example, when I tune a Steinway D my C6 is stretched = to 5.06, C7 is 16.11, and C8 is 43.84.  This is what I consider a conservative tuning.  What kind of numbers do you = get?  On any piano, just measure your C6, 7, & 8 and tell us what = model piano it is, and how it stretches with your tempered = octaves.  That would be very informative.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>dave<BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>*********** REPLY = SEPARATOR ***********<BR><BR>On 10/21/01 at 7:19 AM Billbrpt@AOL.COM wrote:</FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: = #000000 2px solid"><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT size=2>In a message dated = 10/21/01 6:07:55 AM Central Daylight Time, = davidlovepianos@earthlink.net (David Love) writes: <BR><BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: = #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px" TYPE="CITE">That being said, if the pianist needs an = altered tuning to create excitement, he should practice more.</BLOCKQUOTE><BR></FONT><FONT lang=0 face=Arial = color=#000000 size=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><BR>It's always been my = belief, as a piano technician that the better prepared the piano, the better = equipped the artist is.  Remember that I have not advocated *HT* = as such for Jazz.  To you, this implies *altered* tuning which = means something quite noticeably different and thus creates an *interference* with what you do rather than provide an = enhancement. <BR><BR>I don't know if you can or have tried my EBVT but as = I have designed it (with Tempered Octaves), it is meant to enhance = your playing, not shock or disturb your musical sensibilities. =  It is meant to provide definition, texture and clarity, not = weird, jarring and shocking dissonances.  If the EBVT is still = to *altered* for you, I believe you might benefit from the = Marpurg (also with my Tempered Octaves system).  I will give = your piano an uncanny clean, crisp and clear sound but absolutely will = not create any distinction between keys. <BR><BR></FONT><FONT = lang=0 face=Arial color=#000000 size=2 = FAMILY="SANSSERIF">Bill Bremmer RPT <BR>Madison, Wisconsin</FONT><FONT size=2 = Arial></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></FONT><PRE>_____________________________ David M. Porritt dporritt@mail.smu.edu Meadows School of the Arts Southern Methodist University Dallas, TX 75275 _____________________________</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE= ></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>