<HTML><HEAD></HEAD> <BODY style="BORDER-TOP-STYLE: none; BORDER-RIGHT-STYLE: none; BORDER= -LEFT-STYLE: none; BORDER-BOTTOM-STYLE: none">Don't worry about stretch= ing...it comes as a natural part of your tuning.  Once you can tun= e well, you can start thinking about adding more stretch if you want.&n= bsp;  I recommend a 4ths & 5ths tuning checking with 3rds and = 6ths...other fast beating intervals progressing... David Ilvedso= n, RPT Pacifica, California <DIV style="PADDING-RIGHT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 5p= x; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 3px solid; PADDING-TOP: 5px"> <HR> Original message From: Avery <AVERY1@HOUSTON.RR.COM> To: "Pianote= ch List" <PIANOTECH@PTG.ORG> Received: 2/12/2006 1:39:59 PM Subje= ct: Re: Poll : temperaments - choosing ? ( "stretched ? notstretched ?"= part answered ) Philippe, Are you just learning to tune? If so,= my advice is to FIRST just learn to tune a good temperament with nicel= y progressing beat rates on the 3rds & 6ths. Don't worry about a st= retched temperament (whatever that is)! Then worry about stretch as you= go out from the temperament! JMHO! It worked for me for 25+ yrs. :-) E= ven before I started using an ETD. Avery At 10:37 AM 2/= 12/2006, you wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE class=cite cite="" type="cite">Thank you Andrew, for your answer.  = I had read much before ask= ing the question... I understood the theory, but I wanted to know in wh= at measure it was something very strict or if sometimes piano were tune= d as if being a "theoretical piano", just for an example to match them = with other instrument not needing stretched tuning... So my question wa= s more about usages or fashions than technical...   <= FONT face="Arial, Helvetica" size=2>From your explanation, and from= another that came directly on my e-mail, I understand that there are n= o exceptions to stretching... ok, In fact I knew the problem of tuning = very different pianos... but then my question is "how is it usually sol= ved ?", especially when a piano plays with an orchestre. &nbs= p; And about temperament, a= re there also temperaments more commonly used ? amongst tuners ? and am= ongst clients ?   Philippe <DL> <DD>----- Original Message ----- <DD>From: <A href="mailto:anrebe@sbcglobal.net">Andrew and Rebeca= Anderson</A> <DD>To: <A href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">Pianotech List</A> <BR= > <DD>Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2006 3:53 PM <DD>Subject: Re: temperaments - choosing ? stretched ? not stretche= d ? <DD>Phillippe, <DD>I am not sure what you mean by a "stretched temperament."  Tun= ing is stretched on a piano because of inharmonicity caused by the stif= fness of piano wire.  When the wire subdivides vibrations after be= ing struck by the hammer it does so losing a little length with each su= bdivision because the wire is stiff.  The higher the partial, the = more length is lost and the sharper the coincident tone.  When tun= ing a piano aurally, stretch occurs naturally as you match those partia= ls.  You hear the tone blossom or open up, if you will, as you com= e into coincidence.  Where you place it in that narrow zone is a m= atter of taste--narrow, middle or wide. <DD>Because different pianos are scaled (choice of wire size) different= ly, no one recording of reference tones will work throughout the compas= s.  Sometimes manufacturers will "refine" their scaling in a given= model more than once in a year and the same model of piano will actual= ly have a different scale.  The result of different scales is diff= erent tuning sometimes obvious at the extreme ends of the compass.&nbsp= ; The pianos will not harmonize to a greater or lessor degree.  Ac= tually, a lot of scaling refinement happens at the break from the long = bridge to the bass bridge and the break from wound strings to unwound s= trings.  <DD>An example of how scaling differences can show up in real life happ= ened at a university where my wife worked as a pianist.  They had = a NY Steinway D and a Bosendorfer concert grand.  For a concert th= ey chose to have four-hand, two piano accompaniment of the mass choir.&= nbsp; I was attending the concert and during an intermission the choral= director approached me and asked/complained why their tuner couldn't g= et the pianos in tune with each other.  Knowing the person in ques= tion was a fine, pre-eminent technician, I knew the problem wasn't the = tuning and asked about the pianos.  I explained how different pian= o makers would scale their instruments differently pursuing different p= hilosophies of sound and that in order for a piano to be "in-tune" the = resulting scales must be tuned differently.  The only perfectly ha= rmonious note she could count on would be A4, middle A.  (Even the= n such different pianos would respond to climate differently and go out= of tune differently.)  Steinway with its low tension scale and Bo= sendorfer with its high tension scale were destined to clash.  Tho= se piano-makers have very different goals they accomplish with their in= struments.  The university has since purchased another Steinway D.= <DD>This is why guitar tuners do not work for tuning pianos.  Pian= o tuners are more complex and cost multiples of an ordinary tuner.&nbsp= ; There are a variety of electronic tuners offered explicitly for tunin= g pianos.  The cheap ones have stretch templates that may or may n= ot do a good job of "parodying" the piano you are tuning.  The mid= -level ones sample three notes on a piano and then calculate a stretch = curve for the entire piano.  The high-end one measures each note y= ou tune and fits it into the scale based on the measurements and record= s those measurements along with partial strength to influence the place= ment of other notes.  Scaling breaks occur at many places in the p= iano.  Every time you change wire size, you have a scaling break.&= nbsp; That will influence tuning.  People who tune relying strictl= y on their ETD will find that aural checks of an FAC type ETD will reve= al tuning problems on pianos that have prominent scaling breaks (usual = in little pianos). <DD>As to temperament preferences, Equal Temperament is the most disson= ant temperament.  It is also the most flexible temperament, allowi= ng transposition without changing the character of a musical piece.&nbs= p; The further you wander from equal towards just temperament the more = consonant common keys and intervals will become.  This comes at a = price.  The dissonance will be confined more and more into increas= ingly dissonant keys/intervals.  The repertoire becomes more and m= ore constrained by the tuning.  I like well-temperaments.  I'= ve enjoyed Barnes Bach on a piano for some time.  The piano sounde= d much better and more powerful as many intervals were close to consona= nt.  The difficulty was in the more modern repertoire.  Debus= sy came across more like sand-paper then the creamy/dreamy sounds you e= xpect from this composer.  Composers that utilized unequal tempera= ments wrote pieces that took advantage of those inequalities.  Whe= n you switch keys in Mozart, Beethovan, Bach etc. you audibly switch ge= ars in a well-temperament.  Modern composers wrote for what they h= eard on the piano, some advocated for ET.  Understand what you are= getting when you choose a tuning and then make your choice. <DD>Good luck, <DD>Andrew Anderson <DD>At 06:30 AM 2/12/2006, you wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE class=cite cite="" type="cite"> <DD>Hi all, <DD>  <DD>I'm currently studying temperaments, and I wonder if a tuner always= use a stretched temperament, <DD>especially since this doesn't seems quite compatible with the use o= f electronic tuning devices. <DD>(for the not aural tuners...) <DD>  <DD>This question, especially since I've a CD with reference tones for = a stretched temperament, which <DD>seems quite strange since a stretched temperament should depend on = the kind of piano, shouldn't <DD>they ? So what ? <DD>  <DD>subsidiary question : as a tuner, do you prefer to use equal temper= ament ? or do you prefer to use <DD>another one ? (which one) ... Or do your clients often have their s= pecific requests ? (in this case <DD>what are you commonly asked ?) <DD>  <DD>Philippe Errembault</DD></BLOCKQUOTE></DD></DL></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><= /BODY></HTML>