<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; = charset=iso-8859-1"> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1400" name=GENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hello Stephane,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>is it possible for you to send me = length and diameters for the keys that causing the problems?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I will do a dynamic simulation and a = sound simulation with the Minimens to find out what might be the case. Please = let me know also what kind of steel wire Kawai is using. MiniMens can do a = sound simulation that reports also the longitudinal waves. I rather think = it is a problem caused by the longitudinal waves (as Isaac Oleg metioned also = earlier), but to do an exact simulation, it is necessary to know the value of = youngs modulus of the core wire. (I actually only have it for Röslau steel, = it varies from 201 to 207 kN/mm² depending on the diameter). I "measured" youngs = modulus of Röslau steel by simulating different diameters with the = Minimens  Simulator and measured inharmonicity on real instruments with same = settings until the spectra fit.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I don´t think that the problems are = caused by the multiple contacts, because they are normal for the lower keys. on the = lowest octave the hammer does bouncing with the string up to 3 or 4 times, = thats normal.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Best regards,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Bernhard</FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B> <A title=stephane.hanriat@free.fr href="mailto:stephane.hanriat@free.fr">Stéphane Hanriat</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A = title=pianotech@ptg.org href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">Pianotech</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, April 09, 2004 = 8:21 PM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Analysis of plain = wire string/wound wire break on a SteinwayModel Bwith MiniMens 1.0.6</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hello Bernhard,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Very interesting post. I'm wondering = if the "contact ratio" has something related to the "kissing noise" effect = I've observed on most of the Kawai piano I've played. Please see below the = post I sent to the list on the subject. I've working with Kawai Europe & = Japan to try understanding the root cause, but they were not able to explain = this parasitic noise to me, just saying that this is well known and likely = due to hammer condition ??? I've never been convinced about that explanation, = since only very few notes are impacted (few first notes below the break tri-cord/bi-cord) and only on the 1.78m and 1.86m = piano...</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Personnally, as an engineer, I = already made the hypothesis of multiple contacts with the strings in that range, = creating this parasitic noise (see below)...</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I would be very much interested to = have your feedback on this point.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Cheers,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Stephane Hanriat - Owner of Shigeru = Kawai SK3</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>______________________________________________</FONT></DIV> <DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hello List,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I'm back with another topic I would = like to share with you.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>During the process of selecting my = Shigeru piano, I played a lot of Kawai instruments, and I found a strange noise = impacting very few notes, but always the same notes : 23, 24 and 25. The noise = looks like a whistling appearing at the attack, and is very easy to ear when = playing a non legato trill at pianissimo. This noise is clearly audible on = most of RX-2, SK2 (1.78 m), RX-3 and SK3 (1.86 m). Very difficult to ear it on = larger instrument. RX-6 or SK6 (2.12 m) do not have it.  - sorry for the = metric unit -:)</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I had extensive discussions on that = with our french MPA who is now an expert to determine whether an instrument is = having the noise or not. We have contacted Kawai in Japan. They replied that = this is well known as "kissing noise" and that mostly all prestigious brands = are facing this problem that originates from hammer conditions. Kawai also = told us that Steinway has extensively studied the topic without = identifying the root cause ; and when the problem is creating inconvenience at = playing, Steinway is replacing the hammers...</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>We made some experiments at the = french Kawai show room on some RX, without being capable to find a reliable fix. Some = pianos were not having this kissing noise, but most of them had it in the showroom.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>When I play grand pianos in this size = range, I always discreetly check the stuff... but I've not seen this kissing = noise as present as on the Kawai. I can tell you I've been cautious when = selecting my Shigeru, so it took me 2 years to find an SK3 almost free from kissing = noise (but not completely free).</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>If some of you have an explanation = and/or a fix, I would be very excited to learn this (and lot of MPAs too, believe me).</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Cheers,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Stephane Hanriat, the french guy who = loves the Shigeru's.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><FONT face=Arial = size=2></FONT> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>