<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Re: Killer Octave Question</TITLE> <META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; = charset=us-ascii"> <STYLE type=text/css>BLOCKQUOTE { PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px } DL { PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px } UL { PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px } OL { PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px } LI { PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px } </STYLE> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1126" name=GENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY> <DIV><SPAN class=242401306-21042003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2>Hi, lighten on those Erards' (or I send you pictures of the Chickering = ;>)   they where sold to be holding around 50 years, build to hold = 100 years, and the last 1936 grand concert model I've seen, (90 notes) while = having lost most of the crown in the killer zone of the Bermudas, (under 30%RH = and way too much heat) is yet giving us something of a piano = tone.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=242401306-21042003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=242401306-21042003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2>excerpt of a  Erard London catalogue = :</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=242401306-21042003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=242401306-21042003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2>"The DURABILITY of the ERARD Pianoforte is proverbial , and is one of its = most valuable characteristics. While many instruments are worthless = after  a few years' use, the ERARD can be effectively restored to its original = excellent condition when 30years or even 50 years old".</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=242401306-21042003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=242401306-21042003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2>I have meet a few 1915-25 Erards' over strung with a REAL crowning = from bass to treble (2 that I recall for sure) , the owners never care to have = them rebuild or even repaired as they are yet giving a nice tone (that is = desperation for the piano technician)</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=242401306-21042003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2>I was not aware of the crowning method employed in these days so I did not = took notes and pictures, but I know one of them I can have a look at and I will try = to these days.  I had make the effort to go under the piano with a = thread on the 2 pianos I think of.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=242401306-21042003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=242401306-21042003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2>Building and installing crown compressed soundboards have been = told me as being far way more difficult than rib crowned ones, and I see no = advertising about the method nowhere (and indeed most pianist should not understand = the difference). Seems unfair to me to talk as you do.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=242401306-21042003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=242401306-21042003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2>I have the impression too that everyone there is focusing on crown and = durability, while not many are comparing  the response characteristics of the = methods. </FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=242401306-21042003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2>While building soundboard that are supposed to travel and be installed in a = repaired instrument far from the soundboard building place it is understandable = that crown compression (and not only  if I understand well) is used, but = how can you attain an internal assembly tension as high and then a delay in = springiness response with the ribs as the most active elements ?</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=242401306-21042003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2>Are not we using this process to build the internal spring rate of the = soundboard ? </FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=242401306-21042003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=242401306-21042003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2>Being not experienced in these process I certainly will not argue on those = matters with you, but I seem to recall that even Del was building so called = "compression crowned soundboard in its early stages"  BTW thanks, Del for your = clearing on the "neutral fiber laying" it was exactly that concept I was talking = of .</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=242401306-21042003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=242401306-21042003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2>I liked you to admit that m</FONT></SPAN><SPAN = class=242401306-21042003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>ay be those that still use this = method don't understand nothing to the process !!! , but they certainly not do that = for facility reasons , nor for marketing, from what I know, I am yet to see = a brand saying something about their crown building method (while the process is = better known actually because of such a lobbying made, may be Steinway NY = advertise on that now ???)</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=242401306-21042003></SPAN><SPAN class=242401306-21042003></SPAN><SPAN class=242401306-21042003><FONT = face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT size=2><SPAN class=242401306-21042003>Everybody agrees we could build pianos = without any crown if necessary, so </SPAN>t<SPAN class=242401306-21042003>he = presence of crown is not the only proof of the taste of the pudding I'd say !</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT size=2><SPAN class=242401306-21042003></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT size=2><SPAN class=242401306-21042003>Well the next soundboard I will build I will = use S shaped ribs and a compressssed sssshaping method . Or we'll do = again a soundboard with strings on the 2 sides to produce eventually a double = vertical (for twin brothers or sisters that should be nice).</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT size=2><SPAN class=242401306-21042003></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT size=2><SPAN class=242401306-21042003></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT size=2><SPAN class=242401306-21042003>Have a nice Easter anyone !</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT size=2><SPAN class=242401306-21042003></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT size=2><SPAN class=242401306-21042003>Isaac = OLEG </SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT> </DIV> <P><FONT size=2>Isaac OLEG<BR><BR>Entretien et réparation de pianos.<BR><BR>PianoTech<BR>17 rue de Choisy<BR>94400 VITRY sur SEINE<BR>FRANCE<BR>tel : 033 01 47 18 06 98<BR>fax : 033 01 47 18 06 = 90<BR>cell: 06 60 42 58 77 </FONT></P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px = solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT = face=Tahoma size=2>-----Message d'origine-----<BR><B>De :</B> pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org]<B>De la = part de</B> Ron Overs<BR><B>Envoyé :</B> lundi 21 avril 2003 01:23<BR><B>À :</B> Pianotech<BR><B>Objet :</B> Re: = Killer Octave Question<BR><BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV>Ron N. and all,</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite"> <BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite">Yes indeed. Now this leads me to = wonder just how much longer we might expect a sound board with a properly = laminated panel to last?</BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite"><BR>Hi Ron,<BR>Wouldn't the = question more fundamentally be how much longer will the panel last if we design it = to be rib supported rather than panel supported?<BR></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite">Ron N</BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>I am assuming that a serious sound board will be rib crowned, but = a laminated all spruce panel with rib crowning must surely be an = excellent combination.</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>I am assuming that any piano maker worth his/her salt will be = using the RC process for crown. I cannot understand how anyone who claims to be = serious about piano manufacture would use compression crowning. The reality = is, of course, that those who persist in using it are focused on the = marketing and not the product. Its a lot quicker to make sound boards with straight = planed ribs, while drying the hell out of the panel to achieve a crown which hopefully lasts long enough for the castors to come to rest on the = lounge-room carpet. Recently, Del and Terry were discussing a certain manufacturer = who claimed to have achieved perfection by 1930. An Erard representative = made a similar claim at an 1880s trade fair<FONT color=#0000ff> (it is = mentioned in<I> Men Women and Pianos</I> - but I haven't been able to find the = reference - should anyone know the page no. of this quote I would be interested = to hear)</FONT>. And where can the famous Erard be found today outside of = Museums?</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>The logical conclusion we can draw is that claiming perfection is = an admission of 'pending corporate death'. Certainly one swallow doesn't = make it summer, but here we have two swallows. There's always some-one waiting = in the wings to carry the banner forward.</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>Regarding the fit-up of flat bridges to crowned sound boards, as = I think one other technician mentioned on the list, we are talking strictly = about the fit-up of a logarithmic style long bridges. Hockey stick long bridges = truly are 'dust bin' technology.</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>Ron O.</DIV><X-SIGSEP><PRE>-- </PRE></X-SIGSEP> <DIV>_______________________<BR><BR>OVERS PIANOS - SYDNEY<BR>Grand = Piano Manufacturers</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>Web: http://overspianos.com.au</DIV> <DIV>mailto:info@overspianos.com.au</DIV> <DIV>_______________________</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>