<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; = charset=iso-8859-1"> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1106" name=GENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY> <DIV><FONT color=#800000>First of all:</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"Regardless of Terry's bald dome sticking through his topless = hat..."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#800000>I don't even remotely resemble that! I may be = fat, slow, dull, whatever, but I'm not bald!</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#800000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>"Last night (25 years later) I pulled it (long = bridge) back out of some dark corner, <BR>and laid it on my granite panel: just as = flat as ever. It's been <BR>sitting for a day now, balanced at mid-point on = a pencil and is still <BR> flat."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#800000>I did the same thing to my flat Mason & = Hamlin long bridge as Ron suggested. I put a small dowel under somewhere near the = middle of the bridge. I can't balance it though, the midsection of it simply = rotates up and the two ends remain in contact with the table. How is it yours = balances when oriented bottom down and a pencil under the middle?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#800000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#800000>Got a picture?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#800000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#800000>Terry Farrell</FONT></DIV> <DIV> <SPAN id=__#Ath#SignaturePos__></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV>----- Original Message ----- <DIV>From: "Bill Ballard" <<A href="mailto:yardbird@vermontel.net">yardbird@vermontel.net</A>></DI= V> <DIV>To: "Pianotech" <<A href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</A>></DIV> <DIV>Sent: Monday, April 14, 2003 8:20 PM</DIV> <DIV>Subject: Re: Killer Octave Question</DIV></DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV>> At 10:04 AM -0500 4/13/03, Ron Nossaman = wrote:<BR>> >>Was that a solid bridge root with a ship-lap joint, or = vertically laminated?<BR>> >><BR>> >Solid, why?<BR>> <BR>> I = just wasn't used to hearing that a long bridge of maple was that <BR>> = floppy, and thought that the difference in stiffness between <BR>> vertically = laminated and solid might account for your testimony. <BR>> Back when I thought = I was going to be going deeper into belly work <BR>> than just  repair = of old boards, I made myself a vertically laminated <BR>> long bridge, = gluing strips of rotary sawn 1/8" maple veneer (locally <BR>> available) next to = the long bridge I'd pulled off a dead upright. I <BR>> ran both sides across = the jointer and practised notching.<BR>> <BR>> Last night (25 years = later) I pulled it back out of some dark corner, <BR>> and laid it on my = granite panel: just as flat as ever. It's been <BR>> sitting for a day now, = balanced at mid-point on a pencil and is still <BR>> flat. I can push it flat = without too much trouble, but it springs <BR>> back flat quite = emphatically.<BR>> <BR>> >These are new pianos I've tuned for dealers, either on the = dealer's <BR>> >floor, at sales events, or in customers' homes. These are = not <BR>> >necessarily pianos with any specific complaint I was called = to <BR>> >alleviate, though some were. I don't see that it matters a = whole lot <BR>> >if the soundboard dies in the factory, in the truck on = the way to <BR>> >the dealer, or in the customer's home between the time = of delivery <BR>> >and the tuning. This shouldn't be happening at = all, in my opinion.<BR>> ><BR>> >>How many were these?<BR>> = ><BR>> >Dozens, not hundreds.<BR>> <BR>> I'll take your word for it. = My condolences to the owners (if they've notice).<BR>> <BR>> = >>And how many new Steinway pianos have you been called in to examine <BR>> >>because of perfectly fine tone, in which you found the required = <BR>> >>crown.<BR>> >><BR>> >Now that you mention it, I = don't recall ever being called in to <BR>> >examine a piano because of = perfectly fine tone. How many times has <BR>> >this happened to you?<BR>> = <BR>> On the surface this was a joke. (Like the comment from a = <BR>> Medecin-Sans-Frontier doctor on the other side of the Paki border = <BR>> from the Afghan civil war fifteen years ago, that none of the land <BR>> = mine victims making it to his clinic had leg wounds.) The rest of the = <BR>> paragraph did confirm that you've run into good Steinways as = well.<BR>> <BR>> >No Bill, it's somewhat more than less than one. How is it = that you <BR>> >apparently aren't experiencing these problems? Do all = (both?) of the <BR>> >Steinways you service sound perfect? How many pianos = have you <BR>> >checked crown and bearing on, and what correlations have = you made <BR>> >between these measurements and tone production?<BR>> = <BR>> Truth be told, I don't see that many new Steinways. Saxtons River VT = <BR>> is a nice town, but it really is out in the pucker-brush, as far as a = <BR>> constant supply of people ready to purchase a new Steinway. Now that = <BR>> you mention it, whenever I've sold a big ticket Steinway, it's <BR>> generally been from a rebuilder. The Steinways at the dealer just up = <BR>> the river from me aren't very compelling to me or my customers. I've = <BR>> always assumed that whatever could be made of these pianos would be = <BR>> "after-market voicing", but I certainly would have learned a great = <BR>> deal, as you did, checking bearing at various points on these = boards.<BR>> <BR>> When I want to see good fresh Steinways, I grab a Sunday in = July and <BR>> go down to the Marlboro Music Festival. The best most recent = Steinway <BR>> I've encountered was a Dakota Jackson Design AIII belonging to = a <BR>> customer. Laying a string on the underside of that board might = reveal <BR>> what was right where all these others were wrong. It's a very = strong <BR>> piano (not in the Jesse Ventura sense, but in the aspect of = sheer <BR>> size of tone which a voicer has to work with.)<BR>> <BR>> = >Were all those hours of discussion about the drawbacks of <BR>> >compression crowning soundboards for nothing? It's essentially a = <BR>> >design problem. This sort of thing is inherent in the production of = <BR>> >compression crowned soundboards.<BR>> <BR>> Don't mind me. = I've just had to run another sacred cow through the <BR>> meat grinder. I going = to have to turn the bulk of it into patties and <BR>> go through it, burger = by burger, over the month six months. <BR>> Regardless of Terry's bald = dome sticking through his topless hat, the <BR>> only curvature which the = ribs provide is perpendicular to the board <BR>> and bridges. Any = curvature in the board parallel to the grain and <BR>> bridges would seem only to come = from a special shaping of the belly <BR>> rail and the rasten. That shaping = that would seem to be an even <BR>> trickier piece of wood-working (its = pattern having come from the <BR>> intersection of a paper "doughnut, whose = hole was shaped more like a <BR>> piano rim than a circle).<BR>> <BR>> = It would seem to me that the ribs, and the crown they provided, would <BR>> be = all the support for the string load the board would need. Any <BR>> crown = parallel to the board grain and bridges, with the panel out of <BR>> the rim, = would seem to be spurious and inconsequential, all the more <BR>> so because at = the end of the day, crown in that direction has nothing <BR>> to do with any = belly work, but simply the shape of the rim.<BR>> <BR>> But all that = having been dispatched, there is a small residual matter <BR>> which John Hartman = may have been referring to. I've never done any <BR>> bellying, but I'd = guess that there is nothing about the ribs, once <BR>> glued on which would = get in the way of bending that spruce panel up <BR>> or down, parallel to = its grain. (Yes, I know about how much stiffer <BR>> any wood is long the grain = than across it, and also that the contact <BR>> area of the ribs and their = glue lines will provide an extra stiffness <BR>> which an engineer could measure.)<BR>> <BR>> At this point we do have the matter of two = springy pieces of wood, <BR>> the large (piano-rim shaped) pancake of spruce, = and the long stick of <BR>> maple. If they aren't mated, then in the gluing = process, the one with <BR>> the greater spring strength will overcome and = deform the other (or <BR>> more likely be the less deformed of the two in the laminating). But <BR>> then the two of them together will have this = resultant shape, <BR>> overcome and deformed yet again as clamps and glue = fasten them to the <BR>> far stiffer rasten.<BR>> <BR>> (Jeeze, i forgot = and left the meat grinder on all that time.)<BR>> <BR>> So apparently it = doesn't matter that when a poorly mated bridge <BR>> bottom and soundboard = top are glued together, the resultant joint <BR>> will have an inherent = stress. (The stronger of the two springs will <BR>> bend the other.) But this is = nothing which crowned ribs aren't doing <BR>> to the board perpendicular to = the grain. And it if did matter, <BR>> correcting it would require that = extra step of fitting not just the <BR>> bridge to the board, but the = rasten to the resultant board curvature <BR>> around its perimeter. In both cases, = not just extra hours, but stock <BR>> removal which cut put the rest of the = belly process at risk.<BR>> <BR>> Let me know if i have to write = something on the board 100 times, but <BR>> don't ask me to eat more that ten = burgers a day. <g><BR>> <BR>> Bill Ballard RPT<BR>> NH Chapter, P.T.G.<BR>> <BR>> "Never try to teach a pig to sing.<BR>> It = wastes time and annoys the pig."    <BR>> =      ...........Sign on the wall of a college voice teacher's studio.<BR>> = +++++++++++++++++++++<BR>> _______________________________________________<BR>> pianotech list = info: <A href="https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives">http://www.ptg.org= /mailman/listinfo/pianotech</A></BODY></HTML>