<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; = charset=iso-8859-1"> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1264" name=GENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=#ffffff> <DIV>What type of room humidifier are you = using? How many watts does it use? I think the H2 humidistats are rated up to 600 = watts. I have ran a Sears basement-type dehumidifier off a humidistat in the = past. That would solve your troubles for when you travel.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Terry Farrell</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black">From: <A title=anrebe@zianet.com href="mailto:anrebe@zianet.com">Andrew = & Rebeca Anderson</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">To: <A = title=pianotech@ptg.org href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">Pianotech</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">Sent: Wednesday, January 14, = 2004 10:34 AM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">Subject: Re: Where did the RH = Go</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>My wife and I regulate humidity (in winter) through the = whole house with two humidifiers and a gauge on a bookshelf by the = piano.  This requires some attentiveness, and is affected by outdoor weather.  = The problem comes when we travel.  We were away over the holidays for = two weeks and when we returned the humidity was in the high single = digits.  The piano sounded horrible.  We got humidity up in a few days and = in two weeks I retuned.  We have developed a rather low-tolerance for out-of-tune.  The issue is practicality.  Most customers = will not go through the trouble of monitering RH and refilling, turning = on/off their humidifiers on a daily basis.  Once a piano is up to = humidity, the DC will usually last a week often more, it only has a small = environment to keep-up.  The humidity migrates through the wood, even in a grand = piano pin torque is affected (closed lids do help in extreme = environments).  Buying a room humidifier that has a remote-control humidistat will = cost more than a DC system, although it would benefit all the wooden furniture too.  I have discussed this with clients and some have chosen to = get a cheap hardware-store hygrometer and start running a room = humidifier.  They last about halfway to the next tuning and then want a DC system = or believe they can tolerate the effects on the piano. Andrew Anderson Las Cruces, NM At 06:40 AM 1/13/2004 -0500, you = wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE class=cite cite="" type="cite">I = don't think anyone is questioning the effects of RH changes on the tuning of a piano.   I'm with Sarah and = feel that proper full environment humidity control is the best way to go - = better than a full DC installation.   I = think where the arguement comes in is the fact that probably 99% of full = environment humidity control systems are improperly designed, poorly = functioning, turned off and windows opened up, turned off over the holidays and summer, = etc., etc.   But this does not change the fact that if one = installs a proper full environment humidity control system that holds the RH = constant within a few percent, it will be more effective than a full DC.   And don't forget that = even if you hard-wire the DC system into the wall, who is ever going to notice = that the circuit breaker tripped 15 months ago and the piano hasn't had any = humidity control since that time?   In = my shop I have a Sears basement-type dehumidifier. It keeps the shop right at = 45% RH (within a percent or two). I never varies. How in the world is a DC = unit on a piano in my shop going to work better, or do anything at all = besides vapor, dry, vapor, dry, vapor, dry, etc., = etc.?   So I guess the bottom line is that if one is willing to = set up a proper full environment humidity control system that holds the RH = constant within a few percent, that is the best way to go. From a practical standpoint, knowing that 90-some% of full environment humidity = control systems are not going to be real effective, the full DC-type system = is the way to go (they DO work quite well). And as someone pointed out, = from a practical standpoint a full DC-type system in a piano which is in an = environment modified by a full environment humidity control systems = is the best around.   Flame Suite = Tighly Zipped,   Terry Farrell   ----- = Original Message ----- From: "DIANE = HOFSTETTER" <<A = href="mailto:dianepianotuner@msn.com">dianepianotuner@msn.com</A>></= FONT> To: <<A = href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</A>> <FO= NT face=arial size=2>Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2004 2:51 = AM Subject: Re: Where did the RH = Go > = Sarah, > > For fourteen years now my partner and I have been measuring and = graphing the > tuning on every piano immediately before we tune = it.   We also record the > relative humidity and temperature most of = the time, whether it has a > Damppchaser installation or not, and if it = is functioning correctly. > > Then when we next tune the = piano and record all the data again, we have a > way of understanding = how to service the piano to make the tuning as stable > as = possible. > > Over the years I have had fun with a variety of = experiments.  One day I > arrived to tune a piano in a room that is = routinely kept unheated with no > climate control in the piano.  The maintenance people had just turned on the > heat before I = arrived and a stream of warm area was shooting out of the > register = about ten feet away. > > I was dismayed; the heat should have = been turned on hours before.  I knew > the tuning could not be reliable.  I went ahead and graphed the tuning.  As = > soon as I finished that graph, I remeasured the tuning and graphed it = again. >   Then I remeasured and regraphed, and then once again.  I ended up with a > graph showing four = distinctly separate lines of the tuning as it changed > with the = relative humidity and temperature for each line carefully recorded. > = > There is no question in my mind that changes in relative humidity = affect the > tuning dramatically and that a Damppchaser system does an = excellent job of > helping control that.  I have numerous graphs = to show it does. > > Diane > > > > = > > Diane Hofstetter > > > > = > > >From: "Sarah Fox" <<A = href="mailto:sarah@gendernet.org">sarah@gendernet.org</A>> > >Reply-To: Pianotech <<A href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</A>> > = >To: "Pianotech" <<A href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</A>> > >Subject: Re: Where did the RH Go > >Date: Mon, 12 Jan = 2004 21:48:30 -0500 > > > >Hi Don, > > > = > > I did not say your system didn't work. What I said was a DC = system would > > > work even better. > > > >Perhaps.  Perhaps not.  I don't mean to be = argumentative on this point.  > >I'm > >really asking a = question here:  Have you (or has anyone else) done > = >measurements with a good, accurate hygrometer on a complete DC grand > = >installation, during dry ambient conditions, showing that humidity is > >indeed > >evenly distributed all over the soundboard, = both under and on top, and in > >the action cavity?  Also, = have the same measurements been done inside the > >piano with a = closed lid and inside the action cavity during predominantly > = >dehumidifying periods?  In other words, are DC's claims fully > >substantiated, > >as determined empirically with a hygrometer?  I've heard lots of claims > >regarding = stability of pitch.  That's all well and good, of course. > = >However, how well does the DC system regulate humidity (in contrast = to > >pitch)? > > > > > I do recommend room type humdifiers as well--but only to "assist" a DC > > > = unit. If it is a choice of one or the other the DC provides much better > = > > year round control than is generally possible with a room type. = There > >are > > > exceptions, but they are very rare. > > > >This sounds like a reasonable approach. > > > > > Do you have measurements = for the summer time? Where I am I have > >documented > > = > as low as 4% and as high as 84%. > > > >Without humidification, humidity levels inside my house vary from 27% in = > >the > >winter to 67% in the late fall.  I have = forced heat and refrigerated A/C, > >BTW.  I suspect humidity = levels are far different in other parts of the > >state.  I'm in = Central Ohio.  In the lake areas, humidity is undoubtedly > = >much higher during moderate weather.  Also, I have no idea what humidity > >levels occur in other people's homes here in Columbus.  (I don't service > >their pianos. <grin>) > > > > > I would love to have a controller for a DC type system that had much > > > = narrower limits. I know, for example, that rare bird hatcheries have > = >units > > > that are calibrated to 1/10 of one = percent humidity that power an > > > "electronic" fan (read no blades--some sort of vibrating plate) combined > > > = with an ultrasonic humidifer. I'd love to get my pinkies on one! > > > >Well, I can't boast 0.1% limits with my system = (WOW!!), but I do quite a > >bit > >better than the specs DC boasts.  I did a 100% non-DC-brand installation on > = >my concert grand, using a GE humidistat that cycles the system adjustably > >between 40 - 44% (or occasionally as widely = as 39 - 45%) when the ambient > >RH > >is in the upper 40's.  The installation is fairly recent, so I haven't = yet > >been able to observe its behavior at higher humidity = levels.  I'll give you > >an update in the spring if you're = interested. > > > >Peace, > >Sarah > > > = > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > = >pianotech list info: <A = href="https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives">http://www.ptg.org= /mailman/listinfo/pianotech</A> > > = _________________________________________________________________ >= Scope out the new MSN Plus Internet Software - optimizes dial-up to = the max! >    <A = href="http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=byoa/plus&ST= =1">http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=byoa/plus&ST== 1</A> > > _______________________________________________ > pianotech = list info: <A = href="https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives">http://www.ptg.org= /mailman/listinfo/pianotech</A> > = </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>